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Yeah, this is a good definition. Gritty occupies the middle ground between "perfect" and "ghetto." Gritty neighborhoods have some run down buildings which have seen better days, but they don't have many vacant buildings, and certainly don't have a lot of urban prairie. They also don't tend to be monoethnic Black or Latino neighborhoods, being more likely to be either traditionally working-class white or racially integrated areas.
It may be my Northeast bias, but I think another important part of grit is not having a lot of greenery. run-down areas which have plenty of front yards and trees just tend to slide into "ghetto in the woods" as they get worse, and don't really go through a gritty phase.
Grit is highly subjective, I wouldn't agree with your definition of being between perfect and ghetto, it's far too broad. We have gritty neighborhoods in Baton Rouge that are black have some large swaths of empty lots. I have never in my life ran into a white neighborhood that is gritty, they are either lower middle class, solid middle class, or rich. None of which match either of our descriptions of grit. Grit and white neighborhoods are mutually exclusive in my personal experience. Except for when gentrification rears it's ugly face. But then it loses the grit.
This is 1000% northeast bias. Gritty neighborhoods here in NOLA are often ghetto, have vacant buildings, some empty lots here and there, and are either mostly black or mixed. We don't have front yards but there's still some greenery depending on the block. In Baton Rouge non are mixed and all are ghetto.
Yeah, this is a good definition. Gritty occupies the middle ground between "perfect" and "ghetto." Gritty neighborhoods have some run down buildings which have seen better days, but they don't have many vacant buildings, and certainly don't have a lot of urban prairie. They also don't tend to be monoethnic Black or Latino neighborhoods, being more likely to be either traditionally working-class white or racially integrated areas.
It may be my Northeast bias, but I think another important part of grit is not having a lot of greenery. run-down areas which have plenty of front yards and trees just tend to slide into "ghetto in the woods" as they get worse, and don't really go through a gritty phase.
What? Here in New York, there are plenty of gritty neighborhoods which were/are majority black and/or Latino. Bushwick is known for being gritty and being hipster filled and it's still majority Latino, plus I would consider pretty much all of upper Manhattan and The Bronx to be gritty.
Grit is highly subjective, I wouldn't agree with your definition of being between perfect and ghetto, it's far too broad. We have gritty neighborhoods in Baton Rouge that are black have some large swaths of empty lots. I have never in my life ran into a white neighborhood that is gritty, they are either lower middle class, solid middle class, or rich. None of which match either of our descriptions of grit. Grit and white neighborhoods are mutually exclusive in my personal experience. Except for when gentrification rears it's ugly face. But then it loses the grit.
This is 1000% northeast bias. Gritty neighborhoods here in NOLA are often ghetto, have vacant buildings, some empty lots here and there, and are either mostly black or mixed. We don't have front yards but there's still some greenery depending on the block. In Baton Rouge non are mixed and all are ghetto.
Doesn't lower middle class actually mean "solid middle class"?
I thought the dichotomy was just "lower middle class" and "upper middle class", with the former being regular folk and the latter being borderline wealthy folk.
I have never in my life ran into a white neighborhood that is gritty, they are either lower middle class, solid middle class, or rich. None of which match either of our descriptions of grit. Grit and white neighborhoods are mutually exclusive in my personal experience. Except for when gentrification rears it's ugly face. But then it loses the grit.
I don’t think race has anything to do with it. Brooklyn and Queens have some gritty, historically white neighborhoods, some not even gentrified at all.
Ex: Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Astoria, Sheepshead Bay, Midwood
And on a separate note: I don’t think gentrification always means a loss of grittiness. Just look at Gowanus, Brooklyn. The type of gentrification going on there is kind of unique though. It’s more like it’s just being newly developed altogether. It was historically just an industrial district with a few small sections of historical rowhomes but has been rezoned recently and now is seeing a transformation into more of a residential + commercial district. But the toxic canal and industrial charm everywhere still keep the area extremely gritty.
This is a Gowanus:
(The canal is extremely toxic and FWIW, this is a “White neighborhood”)
I don’t think race has anything to do with it. Brooklyn and Queens have some gritty, historically white neighborhoods, some not even gentrified at all.
Ex: Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Astoria, Sheepshead Bay, Midwood
And on a separate note: I don’t think gentrification always means a loss of grittiness. Just look at Gowanus, Brooklyn. The type of gentrification going on there is kind of unique though. It’s more like it’s just being newly developed altogether. It was historically just an industrial district with a few small sections of historical rowhomes but has been rezoned recently and now is seeing a transformation into more of a residential + commercial district. But the toxic canal and industrial charm everywhere still keep the area extremely gritty.
This is a Gowanus:
(The canal is extremely toxic and FWIW, this is a “White neighborhood”)
And just for the record, this is not even near Williamsburg or Bushwick
^^^^^ and I’d like to add Greenpoint to the list of gritty white neighborhoods too. I can’t beleive I forgot it!
Historically it has been a large center for Polish immigrants.
^^^^^ and I’d like to add Greenpoint to the list of gritty white neighborhoods too. I can’t beleive I forgot it!
Historically it has been a large center for Polish immigrants.
Gowanus is a good example of "gritty". Greenpernt too, though it's getting trendy and pricey.
^^^The Bywater and Marigny in New Orleans are both on the gritty side and are largely white. They historically were white too though parts saw a black population influx. Same for parts of Mid-City and Uptown. All have seen some gentrification, though retain their grittiness. Similarly the older parts of Harvey, Marrero, and Westwego along the river are overwhelmingly white and gritty.
Gritty to me means an area is not perfectly polished or maintained. Some of the houses could use some work or a paint job, streets could use more trees and greenery, maybe there is some graffiti or abandoned industrial buildings, the neighborhood bar or corners store looks like it might collapse, etc. This could range from a relatively stable working class neighborhood to a full blown ghetto to a gentrifying area. All and all, grit gives an area a sense of history and character, a sense of place and interest that is often times not found in more well maintained area. It is like the old house that has all its original historic details but could maybe use a fresh coat of paint vs. the newly renovated house that even though it is a 100+ years old they somehow seemed to have sucked all the character and history out of it.
Good. Would you say a Fishtown is grittier than Point Breeze? How about Brewerytown?
Once again, this has nothing to do with my post or the topic. My knowledge of Philadelphia's numerous neighborhoods is completely irrelevant to this discussion. All I've said is that Fishtown doesn't look too gritty based off the video that was posted earlier. You have completely misinterpreted or overlooked everything I've said.
I stand by my earlier point; any neighborhood full of 3rd wave coffee roasters and new restaurants/bars (as depicted in the Fishtown video) is not that gritty. It doesn't matter if it's in Brooklyn or Baton Rouge. I don't equate having a few gritty elements (older housing stock, graffiti murals, etc) with being definitely gritty.
From Fishtown's wikipedia of all places
'In recent years Fishtown has experienced moderate gentrification characterized by significant rises in housing prices and the opening of upscale art, entertainment, and dining establishments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishtown,_Philadelphia
Since you clearly take issue with my assertion, why not post some evidence to the contrary, or state why you think Fishtown is gritty?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine
You’ve offered several opinions masquerading as verifiable assertions. It seems you’re not clear on how things work here. If you’re not interested in arguing facts, that means you don’t have much of an argument to begin with.
The only thing I am uninterested in arguing over is the urbanity of south central because it's tangential to the topic of gritty appeal. I provided alternative examples of more definitely urban places to address my point, which you ignored. There are a dozen other threads where the relative urbanity of neighborhoods/regions can be more appropriately discussed.
Frankly, it seems you're the one that's uninterested in having a debate, since you've repeatedly ignored my points and have instead chosen to make snide/off-topic remarks about negligible details.
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