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Old 11-03-2017, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,667,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringSnow View Post
Santa Fe is a 4-seasonal climate, I don't think you can call it "warm" under any stretch of the imagination. Though I get it, it has a Spanish name and is close to Mexico so people assume it's warm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Exactly, Santa Fe has a normal mean temp below freezing in both December and January, that is Continental
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconographer View Post
Well, that is true. It actually comes to my mind first and foremost as a summer retreat.
Santa Fe is rather cold. It's weather is identical to Flagstaff. Summer highs in the low 70s (this is what I was seeing in August) might be warm climate to some people, but I think that qualifies more in the cold side of the spectrum. Summer nights required a thick jacket for me.

Albuquerque works I think though, maybe.
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:29 PM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
Santa Fe is rather cold. It's weather is identical to Flagstaff. Summer highs in the low 70s (this is what I was seeing in August) might be warm climate to some people, but I think that qualifies more in the cold side of the spectrum. Summer nights required a thick jacket for me.

Albuquerque works I think though, maybe.
Prickly I can't let you get away with saying identical....they are different climates,
even though at almost the same elevation in SW USA.

Santa Fe............Flagstaff................Albuquerque (South Valley)
44/18.......jan......43/17.........jan........50/21
48/22.......feb......45/19.........feb........56/26
56/26.......mar......50/24........mar.......64/32
65/32.......apr.......58/29........apr........72/39
74/41.......may......68/35........may......80/48
84/50.......jun.......78/42........jun.......89/55
86/55.......jul........81/51........jul........91/62
83/54.......aug......78/50........aug.......89/62
78/47.......sep.......73/42.......sep........82/53
67/36.......oct........62/32.......oct........72/41
53/25.......nov.......51/23.......nov........59/29
43/17.......dec.......43/17.......dec........49/22

Both Santa Fe and Flagstaff have almost identical december and january temps but
Santa Fe is warmer the other 10 months of the year.

Also Santa Fe is drier and has much less snow than Flagstaff.

Santa Fe average annual precipitation is 14 inches
Sante Fe average annual snowfall is 23 inches.

Flagstaff average annual precipitation is 22 inches.
Flagstaff average annual snowfall is 102 inches ....more than Buffalo, NY

Albuquerque is much warmer than both.

Albuquerque average annual precipitation is 10 inchex.
Albuquerque average annual snowfall is 8 inches.

I used stats from Albuquerque South Valley weather station at elevation 4,955 ft.
ABQ airport has much warmer lows but cooler highs at elevation 5,311 ft
Petroglyphs weather station, located on Albuquerque's west side, climate data is the warmest,
average monthly high about 3 degrees warmer than the South Side and warmer lows too.

Flagstaff is too cool even for me, not too mention way too snowy.

Santa Fe is on the cool side but it's abundant sunshine helps.

Albuquerque is on the borderline of what I consider warm
and some summers can be quite hot, especially in the valley and west side.
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,164,136 times
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Anywhere dry (including Sante Fe, Albuquerque) can get quite cold at times.
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:36 PM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Anywhere dry (including Sante Fe, Albuquerque) can get quite cold at times.
Especially at night.

I've gone out walking at night in the winter in a number of towns and cities
throughout the SW and it can be pretty cold, a cold that goes right through you,
need a warm jacket, even in places like Tucson.
Day time is another story, many winter afternoons can be very nice, sunny, and warm.
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,667,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
Prickly I can't let you get away with saying identical....they are different climates,
even though at almost the same elevation in SW USA.

Santa Fe............Flagstaff................Albuquerque (South Valley)
44/18.......jan......43/17.........jan........50/21
48/22.......feb......45/19.........feb........56/26
56/26.......mar......50/24........mar.......64/32
65/32.......apr.......58/29........apr........72/39
74/41.......may......68/35........may......80/48
84/50.......jun.......78/42........jun.......89/55
86/55.......jul........81/51........jul........91/62
83/54.......aug......78/50........aug.......89/62
78/47.......sep.......73/42.......sep........82/53
67/36.......oct........62/32.......oct........72/41
53/25.......nov.......51/23.......nov........59/29
43/17.......dec.......43/17.......dec........49/22

Both Santa Fe and Flagstaff have almost identical december and january temps but
Santa Fe is warmer the other 10 months of the year.

Also Santa Fe is drier and has much less snow than Flagstaff.

Santa Fe average annual precipitation is 14 inches
Sante Fe average annual snowfall is 23 inches.

Flagstaff average annual precipitation is 22 inches.
Flagstaff average annual snowfall is 102 inches ....more than Buffalo, NY

Albuquerque is much warmer than both.

Albuquerque average annual precipitation is 10 inchex.
Albuquerque average annual snowfall is 8 inches.

I used stats from Albuquerque South Valley weather station at elevation 4,955 ft.
ABQ airport has much warmer lows but cooler highs at elevation 5,311 ft
Petroglyphs weather station, located on Albuquerque's west side, climate data is the warmest,
average monthly high about 3 degrees warmer than the South Side and warmer lows too.

Flagstaff is too cool even for me, not too mention way too snowy.

Santa Fe is on the cool side but it's abundant sunshine helps.

Albuquerque is on the borderline of what I consider warm
and some summers can be quite hot, especially in the valley and west side.
Wow a 5 degree difference in the summers!! That's such a huge difference! Can't believe I would gloss over that

When I was in Santa Fe August of 2016 it was in the low to mid 70s during the day. Their temperatures are practically the same. Yes Santa Fe gets less snow because Santa Fe is still in a desert, albeit a cold one. Flagstaff is not in a desert, but is a forested oasis surrounded by high desert. This is obvious from pictures of both places.

Any Westerner can tell you that elevation is key to how we experience temperature and weather. Especially in extremely arid, desert areas. You noted that yourself that the elevation between Flagstaff and Santa Fe are the same. A 5 degree difference is extremely minimal in feel despite being classified as different climates. Santa Fe, like the rest of US desert cities, have a rainy period in the summer we refer to as monsoon season. Winters are usually dry. Flagstaff is not a desert city, and thus has precipitation levels that reflect that. Flagstaff also doesn't have a monsoon season. Unlike it's immediate surrounding areas, Flagstaff has a dry summer and what I would consider a "wet winter" given the amount of snow it receives. Flagstaff is still surrounded by enough desert to not have significantly high humidity levels (I believe it hovers in the 40s? Here in Phoenix we are usually around 15% for comparison) but enough for different precipitation patterns. I do believe Flagstaff is an anomaly, and a strange phenomenon as far as climate goes.

Yes without humidity it gets cold quick. People seem to forget it's humidity is what keeps things temperate. Here in Phoenix we can see 40 degree changes during the winter time. In the summer it doesn't drop as much because of the urban heat island effect, though in untouched desert outside of our UHI it can get into the 70s at night from the 100s. Now at night it hovers in the high 90s in the summer inside of the city.
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Old 11-04-2017, 03:50 AM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
7,269 posts, read 4,537,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
Wow a 5 degree difference in the summers!! That's such a huge difference! Can't believe I would gloss over that

When I was in Santa Fe August of 2016 it was in the low to mid 70s during the day. Their temperatures are practically the same. Yes Santa Fe gets less snow because Santa Fe is still in a desert, albeit a cold one. Flagstaff is not in a desert, but is a forested oasis surrounded by high desert. This is obvious from pictures of both places.

Any Westerner can tell you that elevation is key to how we experience temperature and weather. Especially in extremely arid, desert areas. You noted that yourself that the elevation between Flagstaff and Santa Fe are the same. A 5 degree difference is extremely minimal in feel despite being classified as different climates. Santa Fe, like the rest of US desert cities, have a rainy period in the summer we refer to as monsoon season. Winters are usually dry. Flagstaff is not a desert city, and thus has precipitation levels that reflect that. Flagstaff also doesn't have a monsoon season. Unlike it's immediate surrounding areas, Flagstaff has a dry summer and what I would consider a "wet winter" given the amount of snow it receives. Flagstaff is still surrounded by enough desert to not have significantly high humidity levels (I believe it hovers in the 40s? Here in Phoenix we are usually around 15% for comparison) but enough for different precipitation patterns. I do believe Flagstaff is an anomaly, and a strange phenomenon as far as climate goes.

Yes without humidity it gets cold quick. People seem to forget it's humidity is what keeps things temperate. Here in Phoenix we can see 40 degree changes during the winter time. In the summer it doesn't drop as much because of the urban heat island effect, though in untouched desert outside of our UHI it can get into the 70s at night from the 100s. Now at night it hovers in the high 90s in the summer inside of the city.
Not same climate.....Flagstaff is Dsb......Santa Fe is BSk....Albuquerque is also BSk (albeit warmer),
if you lived a full year in Flagstaff and a full year in Santa Fe, you would notice differences for sure.
Am I saying they are totally different like Miami and Moscow....no....
but they do not have identical climates like you mentioned, that is simply not true.
Phoenix is BWh and Tucson is BSh.....again not same climate, similiar, not identical.
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Old 11-04-2017, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,667,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
Not same climate.....Flagstaff is Dsb......Santa Fe is BSk....Albuquerque is also BSk (albeit warmer),
if you lived a full year in Flagstaff and a full year in Santa Fe, you would notice differences for sure.
Am I saying they are totally different like Miami and Moscow....no....
but they do not have identical climates like you mentioned, that is simply not true.
Phoenix is BWh and Tucson is BSh.....again not same climate, similiar, not identical.
Both Phoenix and Tucson are BWh "subtropical desert climates" I don't know where you are getting your information.



(you can see on this map Flagstaff sits in a purple circle surrounded by semi-arid and cold desert, which are the climates of Santa Fe and Albuquerque).

Phoenix and Tucson sit in the same desert and are close by. What is different between them is that Tucson is 1000 feet higher, and is slightly cooler DUE to that. I stand by what I say when I mean elevation is a better determining factor for temperatures and weather than all else. If Phoenix and Tucson are classified differently and that photo I linked from a study is actually wrong, no one would honestly say they experience different climate.

I've lived in both Phoenix and Tucson so you really don't have any grounds on telling someone who has actually lived in both Phoenix and Tucson that they are different. They really are not climatically different.

I find Koppen to be mostly hogwash, mainly because of scenarios like coastal California and Seattle and Portland being classified the exact same way. I would never once say Seattle and San Jose are climatically the same and thus if you lived in one or the other your experiences of the temperature and weather are the same. And if Phoenix and Tucson are really classified differently, then it's definitely hogwash.
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Old 11-04-2017, 03:31 PM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
7,269 posts, read 4,537,289 times
Reputation: 5636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
Both Phoenix and Tucson are BWh "subtropical desert climates" I don't know where you are getting your information.



(you can see on this map Flagstaff sits in a purple circle surrounded by semi-arid and cold desert, which are the climates of Santa Fe and Albuquerque).

Phoenix and Tucson sit in the same desert and are close by. What is different between them is that Tucson is 1000 feet higher, and is slightly cooler DUE to that. I stand by what I say when I mean elevation is a better determining factor for temperatures and weather than all else. If Phoenix and Tucson are classified differently and that photo I linked from a study is actually wrong, no one would honestly say they experience different climate.

I've lived in both Phoenix and Tucson so you really don't have any grounds on telling someone who has actually lived in both Phoenix and Tucson that they are different. They really are not climatically different.

I find Koppen to be mostly hogwash, mainly because of scenarios like coastal California and Seattle and Portland being classified the exact same way. I would never once say Seattle and San Jose are climatically the same and thus if you lived in one or the other your experiences of the temperature and weather are the same. And if Phoenix and Tucson are really classified differently, then it's definitely hogwash.
I agree, Tucson and Phoenix have similar climates, Tucson is higher and a bit cooler,
also less dry than Phoenix.

Tucson averages 12 inches precipitation annually, whereas Phoenix only averages 8 inches,
than is the reason that Tucson is classified as BSh and Phoenix BWh.
The arbitrary threshold that Koppen chose is 250 mm ...if less than that (approx 10 inches)
is desert ...above 250 mm ...Steppe. Tucson is very close to the borderline,
I've seen it classified sometimes as BWh, other times BSh.
Myself, I'd prefer to live in Tucson, it's a bit cooler every month than Phoenix,
that few dehgrees cooler makes a difference, Las Cruces and El Paso even better still.
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Old 11-04-2017, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,667,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
I agree, Tucson and Phoenix have similar climates, Tucson is higher and a bit cooler,
also less dry than Phoenix.

Tucson averages 12 inches precipitation annually, whereas Phoenix only averages 8 inches,
than is the reason that Tucson is classified as BSh and Phoenix BWh.
The arbitrary threshold that Koppen chose is 250 mm ...if less than that (approx 10 inches)
is desert ...above 250 mm ...Steppe. Tucson is very close to the borderline,
I've seen it classified sometimes as BWh, other times BSh.
Myself, I'd prefer to live in Tucson, it's a bit cooler every month than Phoenix,
that few dehgrees cooler makes a difference, Las Cruces and El Paso even better still.
Tucson and Phoenix I think are getting closer together weather wise than keeping their distance like they used to in the past.

Today Phoenix is about 40% humidity, which is abnormally high for us. Tucson is 25%, which is also still pretty high. Both are overcast and here in Scottsdale it rained, can't speak for the other suburbs.

Obviously they aren't in the same exact location so there will always be some differences. But during the 4 years I lived in Tucson and frequently going back up to Phoenix where I am from, more often than not it was less than a 5 degree difference during a summer day. Not always, but that was common. There were times the highs were the exact same.

Monsoon season is better in Tucson though, hence the precipitation difference. Tucson however is less prone to haboobs, probably due to less exurb construction.

Tucson and Phoenix seem to see the biggest differences during the winter. I remember many dark winter nights in Tucson that were in the 20s, which is VERY rare for Phoenix.

In general though I wouldn't advise someone to pick Tucson over Phoenix because of weather alone, mainly because the gap is closing, but Tucson and Phoenix are vastly different places culturally and for someone who is NOT from the Southwest will have a harder time adapting to Tucson's unique culture than Phoenix's which is more similar to the rest of the United States.
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Old 11-04-2017, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
18,926 posts, read 6,929,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
I agree, Tucson and Phoenix have similar climates, Tucson is higher and a bit cooler,
also less dry than Phoenix.

Tucson averages 12 inches precipitation annually, whereas Phoenix only averages 8 inches,
than is the reason that Tucson is classified as BSh and Phoenix BWh.
The arbitrary threshold that Koppen chose is 250 mm ...if less than that (approx 10 inches)
is desert ...above 250 mm ...Steppe. Tucson is very close to the borderline,
I've seen it classified sometimes as BWh, other times BSh.
Myself, I'd prefer to live in Tucson, it's a bit cooler every month than Phoenix,
that few dehgrees cooler makes a difference, Las Cruces and El Paso even better still.
Actually, the amount of rain delineating arid/semi-arid, etc depends on annual mean temp, and distribution of precip. But based on Koppen's formula, Tucson does just barely come out as BSh, though it's borderline, almost BWh
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