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Old 11-19-2017, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyCarcetti View Post
You left Baltimore out...
Left out St. Louis too, but added Cleveland and Orlando?
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
St. Louis is the fourth largest MSA in Midwest. I don't think there is CSA numbers, but St. Louis has a significantly larger MSA than Cleveland.
I'm more of a CSA person so I normally rank cities by CSA population size.

I actually generally don't care for MSA, but I know some people do, so wanted to post the CSAs above by MSA before adding the CSA counties to them.

Saint Louis will be in the next traunch of CSAs (2.5-3 million).
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:06 PM
 
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So, where's Cleveland's CSA? You only included what is now Cleveland's MSA.

Last edited by Kamms; 11-19-2017 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
1,609 posts, read 1,108,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facts Kill Rhetoric View Post
Good work, a couple of notes and observations (and some rambling). I also tend to do subjects like this as well, ones that invoke studying trends (see here and here for two such examples).

1. Phoenix has incrementally leveled off. Its peak appears to be in the 1990s when it went +101,340 on average each year over the 10 year span of the decade and has gradually shown a cooling off in each of the two decades following the 1990s. I suspect that the level off in the 2000s was due to the Great Recession, which while globally was in its nadir in 2008 and 2009, it actually started with recessionary trends a few years earlier on in the hardest hit American states (i.e. Florida, Arizona, Nevada, California) in 2006 and 2007. What the Great Recession did was temper domestic migration nationwide, as people stopped moving across the country during the recession due to the volatile and fragile nature of the housing market in both the city they already lived in and quite possibly and especially more so in the cities they may have wanted to move to. This also explains the 2010s decade for Phoenix as well, as the hardest hit areas by the Great Recession didn't come back in full force until 2014 and in some cases 2015. Some of them still haven't yet recovered back to the growth levels they used to be. I expect the 2020s decade to be better for Phoenix than the 2000s were and the 2010s are.

2. You're right about Boston being in its "Golden Age" and that's commendable for that city, as I always say, they are a model city and an ideal template for many places to borrow things and emulate due to their success. Great performer and city, however by the time the 2020 census comes out, it will reveal that this can no longer be considered Boston's Golden Age. Boston each year for the last few years has slowed down more and more and these trends will continue onwards for the rest of the decade, as trajectory points to a high probability of doing so, as well as the United States moving further away from the Great Recession and domestic migration trends begin to take their pre-recession form again.

Here is the Boston MSA's annual population gain for each year of this 2010s decade, so far, notice the incremental cooling off each year compared to the year before:

2011: + 56,008
2012: + 43,601
2013: + 44,282
2014: + 38,418
2015: + 32,044
2016: + 27,692

As the United States moves further away from the Great Recession, people become more apt to moving out and resuming the same migration trends that persisted prior to the Great Recession. The Great Recession due to its nature and the way it affected both banks/lending institutions and the housing market actually served as a boon for places that had high domestic outward migration in the 2000s as it kept those people at bay (for obvious reasons) rather than allowing them to move away.

We will have a very good idea about Boston in 2017 next month when state population growth totals for 2017 are released in December. Greater Boston comprises of like 95% of Massachusetts population growth, so we'll have an idea of where Boston stands soon. The reason I assert that this decade wont finish as Boston's Golden Age is because by your data compilation suggests, it is just a thin hair (and I mean real thin) ahead of the 1960s Boston MSA growth. Even a slowdown of 1,500 people in Boston MSA will push the average annual gains for this decade for Boston down below the 1960s and that appears to be the most likely scenario given the incremental trends of this decade thus far.

I am not worried about Boston posting a decline at all, it has enough luster to keep itself afloat, the place is pretty cutting edge like New York. So I think they will be fine but are a candidate to see further deceleration if you go by annual year-to-year trends so far this decade where it has decelerated just about each year from the prior year.

3. You know, ironically the last 15 years or so, New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago have actually grown more slowly during time periods when the United States economy as a whole is booming. Take a look at New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago's population growth from 2000 to 2007 when the national economy was booming and construction was close to peak levels across the country. Their populations grew more slowly because of high price appreciation on homes that pushed people out to other areas of the country because of it and in turn fueled the population explosion in places like NV, AZ, GA, and NC that the migrants from these places often relocated to. The Great Recession actually helped these cities, when the United States economy was in doldrums, people were staying put and not moving because they didn't want to take the risk of relocating to an area where the housing prices were bottoming out as that would be a risky investment as your investments value would plummet. They waited it out until the national economy improved and are now back to their outward migration trends. Notice how each year that passes this decade the American economy becomes stronger, these 3 cities have very good (or at least respectable job growth this decade so far) but each year their outward domestic migration hole only widens instead of narrowing. That will probably continue, expect areas like Las Vegas and Phoenix (and some others) to finish this decade with tremendous population growth for the remaining 3-4 years due to the outward migration increasing for New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

4. Dallas and Houston are two of the youngest metropolitan areas in the United States demographically, only Salt Lake City, Austin, and San Antonio are either younger or comparable in age. Their best decade is supposed to be either next decade in the 2020s or the decade after in the 2030s due to their expansion friendly fertility rates (Texas is one of the absolute top states for fertility rate after Utah, which is #1), immigration trends and advantages, and abundant developable land which keep cost overruns in check (as the core becomes more expensive, nodes are built more outward and keep market prices at bay). Houston's actually having its best decade on record for immigration, while Dallas' immigration trends were better in the 2000s than they are now, they're still holding very strong, among the Top 6-7 in all of the United States despite that. Enough to get the job done the next two decades. The only things that can derail these two in the next 20 years is them becoming excruciatingly expensive, which is not much of a concern due to their pro-growth policies and abundant land as well as decentralized model of expansion. So they will in all likelihood be fine, probably will be #1 and #2 respectively in all of North America for raw population growth (well, along with Mexico City). As crazy as it may seem, the 2010s decade is probably not going to stay Dallas and Houston's "Golden Age" for long, I expect the next two decades to be better for it as they reach their peak growth potential then (peak growth is just as much about timing as it is about trends).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...fertility_rate

5. I find Atlanta to be complex. It is more vulnerable than either Dallas or Houston because it is far more reliant on domestic migration trends for its growth (in raw numbers) than those places are (Dallas and Houston are both significantly higher than Atlanta on immigration and natural increase related growth). For instance, in 2016 Dallas' natural increase netted it 56,000 people off births and immigration netted another 25,000 people, for a combined total of + 81,000 from just natural increase + immigration put together. Houston netted nearly 62,000 people from natural increase and 35,000 by immigration for a combined total of + 97,000 off of just natural increase + immigration. In contrast, Atlanta netted 35,000 people by natural increase and 18,000 people by immigration for a combined total of + 53,000 people by natural increase + immigration. While I haven't posted the domestic migration numbers for any of the three in this post, as you can see though, one of the three is not like the other two with regards to the mechanisms that make them grow. Population growth in the United States comes from three sources: 1) natural increase (births minus deaths); 2) immigration (people from outside the U.S.); and 3) domestic migration (number of Americans moving in as compared to moving out). Atlanta's generally very reliant on domestic migration for its growth, it's actually why it has a lower fertility rate and higher median age than Dallas or Houston, because the transplants Atlanta attracts are from much older parts of the country (age wise demographically).

So a lot of Atlanta's growth can and will depend on the outlook of the areas that feed its pipeline of migrants. I think like Phoenix, Atlanta's 2010s decade is more or less done and will not be able to stand up to its 1990s decade or 2000s decade, 6 years of the 2010s decade are already in the books and Atlanta hasn't even cracked 100,000 people per year even once this decade as an MSA. Not even in 2011, which was a 15 month cycle instead of the standard 12 month one all the other years are. Atlanta has to make up too much ground in the remaining 3-4 years (2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020) to get to 100,000 people per year average for the entire decade and + 1,000,000 for the entire decade. It's possible but the region would have to go off for something like 150,000 people per year for every year remaining to do it, which is asking for too much for an area that still hasn't reached 6-figures any year this decade so far.

Like Phoenix, I expect the 2020s decade to be better for Atlanta than the 2010s are because the Great Recession and the slow recovery from it wasted 4-5 years for Atlanta this decade. The city is off to a great start now but will have to make up much more ground. That being said, this city will move up the population rankings by 2020. Its MSA will move from #9 to #8, surpassing Philadelphia MSA by the 2020 census (its barely behind now, the gap is less than 300,000 with 4 more census estimates to go before the decade is over, and Atlanta is growing significantly faster in raw counts) and its CSA will likely move from #11 to #10 sometime after the 2020 census (like 2024 or so), surpassing Philadelphia to get into the Top 10 for the first time in its history. So lots of upside to be had for Atlanta going forward, so long as the United States' economy stays afloat.

6. The Florida cities are dynamic as hell. Aside from Texas, Florida is the only other state I would call a "growth machine and beast" in this aspect. It's also made a strong recovery from the Great Recession. I expect in the decades to come for Tampa Bay Area to consolidate with the surroundings to form a new CSA when Sarasota, Lakeland, and Homosassa Springs are finally added in. Believe it or not, I think at some point this century that Miami's position as the most populous metropolis in Florida will come under the threat of being surpassed by either Orlando or Tampa. If I were hedging bets, mine would go to Tampa Bay Area as it has the most interlinked economy of all the major Floridian cities to the national U.S. economy as a whole and has the best factors going for it. That being said, I see Miami as a metropolis CSA getting to at least 9 million by midcentury, the Tampa Bay Area under its new definition will get to 8 million (that area is already like 4.9 million now), and Orlando to get to somewhere in the 7 millions by midcentury as it too will consolidate and add in an area like Palm Bay-Melbourne into its CSA and the rest all off organic population growth.

Like I mentioned for Phoenix and Atlanta, the Florida cities will probably have a better decade in the 2020s than they did in the 2010s and 2000s due to the Great Recession. So long as the national economy doesn't have another recession as bad as the Great Recession, its a safe bet to hedge on Florida for incremental and impressive growth going forward for some more decades.

7. Population growth for the United States as a whole is dropping to some of its slowest levels in nearly a century, both by percentage and by raw numbers. This is especially concerning for major areas that are barely adding people right now as it is, as the trends continue they are in jeopardy of posting declines as the country goes through rapid aging, fertility rates continue to drop, and immigration continues to disperse to newer fast growth magnets or already established immigrant gateways. Places that have low fertility rates and high median ages will drop from stagnation into decline. I am not wishing for that to happen but as someone that studies these trends hard, I already see it starting to happen now.

Next month is a good litmus test when the 2017 state population estimates are released. It will show that America has further slowed down in 2017 compared to the year before in 2016 and the places that have had decelerating growth each year as this decade has progressed onwards, will continue to lose more growth share to somewhere else. America's slowdown will affect certain places and certain parts of the country (particularly to more demographically older aged ones) more than the younger and more fertile ones, at least for another generation, possibly two.
Lots of good points.

Washington DC also has artificial 2010-2016 growth since that was a function of 100k+ gains each year in the immediate aftermath of the Great Recession.

And the Florida growth is indeed insane. I just from the NYT that possibly up to ~160k Puerto Ricans are settling in Orlando by the end of 2017 (~60k have already done so and 100k have flights to Orlando through December 31 - and we all know they aren't coming to vacation). So I would be shocked if the 2010-2016 average doesn't skyrocket in May 2019 release (since Hurricane Maria occurred after July 1, 2017, we'll have to wait for the July 1, 2018 release in May 2019 to know the extent of demographic change).

Nothing to note about Phoenix, other than I wish the city would urbanize rather than just tacking on suburbs at the end of the sprawl line.
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
1,609 posts, read 1,108,082 times
Reputation: 1903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
So, where's Cleveland's CSA?
I'm currently calculating the CSA figures for the 21 cities posted in the previous page:

The MSAs for the cities with CSAs above 3 million (Complete)
  1. Atlanta
  2. Boston
  3. Chicago
  4. Cleveland
  5. Dallas
  6. Denver
  7. Detroit
  8. Houston
  9. Los Angeles
  10. Miami
  11. Minneapolis
  12. New York
  13. Orlando
  14. Philadelphia
  15. Phoenix
  16. Portland
  17. San Diego
  18. San Francisco
  19. Seattle
  20. Tampa
  21. Washington

Then those 21 cities as CSAs:
  1. Atlanta
  2. Boston
  3. Chicago
  4. Cleveland
  5. Dallas
  6. Denver
  7. Detroit
  8. Houston
  9. Los Angeles
  10. Miami
  11. Minneapolis
  12. New York
  13. Orlando
  14. Philadelphia
  15. Phoenix
  16. Portland
  17. San Diego
  18. San Francisco
  19. Seattle
  20. Tampa
  21. Washington

Then come 14 more MSAs:
  1. Austin
  2. Charlotte
  3. Cincinnati
  4. Columbus
  5. Indianapolis
  6. Kansas City
  7. Las Vegas
  8. Milwaukee
  9. Pittsburgh
  10. Raleigh
  11. Sacramento
  12. Saint Louis
  13. Salt Lake City
  14. San Antonio

Then come 14 more CSAs:
  1. Austin
  2. Charlotte
  3. Cincinnati
  4. Columbus
  5. Indianapolis
  6. Kansas City
  7. Las Vegas
  8. Milwaukee
  9. Pittsburgh
  10. Raleigh
  11. Sacramento
  12. Saint Louis
  13. Salt Lake City
  14. San Antonio
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Old 11-19-2017, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
1,609 posts, read 1,108,082 times
Reputation: 1903
Default Combined Statistical Areas/PSAs 1900-2016

Here are the 21 CSA/PSAs with 3,000,000 people in 2016 by their historical populations. Again, this holds delineations constant across time.










































Last edited by manitopiaaa; 11-19-2017 at 03:43 PM..
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Old 11-19-2017, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
1,609 posts, read 1,108,082 times
Reputation: 1903
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyCarcetti View Post
You left Baltimore out...
Here's the Baltimore MSA and (for comparison) the Washington MSA:





Side-by-Side:
1900: Baltimore 736,540 vs. Washington 595,110 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore) <- Not as close as it appears. Baltimore city had 500k vs. 300k for the DC Diamond.
1910: Baltimore 815,231 vs. Washington 660,603 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore)
1920: Baltimore 947,414 vs. Washington 789,123 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore)
1930: Baltimore 1,082,927 vs. Washington 888,315 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore)
1940: Baltimore 1,189,065 vs. Washington 1,202,683 (Bigger MSA: Washington) <- The rise of the bureaucratic state under FDR saw DC grow by nearly 50%
1950: Baltimore 1,471,760 vs. Washington 1,725,041 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
1960: Baltimore 1,820,314 vs. Washington 2,344,196 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
1970: Baltimore 2,089,120 vs. Washington 3,180,343 (Bigger MSA: Washington) <- DC now 1.5x bigger than Baltimore
1980: Baltimore 2,199,497 vs. Washington 3,427,728 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
1990: Baltimore 2,382,172 vs. Washington 4,157,327 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
2000: Baltimore 2,552,994 vs. Washington 4,837,428 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
2010: Baltimore 2,710,489 vs. Washington 5,636,232 (Bigger MSA: Washington) <- DC now 2x bigger than Baltimore
2016: Baltimore 2,798,886 vs. Washington 6,131,977 (Bigger MSA: Washington)

One interesting thing is that Baltimore's MSA didn't start taking off in population until AFTER Baltimore city had peaked. Baltimore MSA's best decade was the same one that Baltimore city began to decline. This isn't really unusual among Rust Belt cities, but in the case of Cleveland and Detroit, when the center city began to decline they dragged down the whole MSAs with them. For Baltimore it's the opposite

I know it's incredibly unlikely, but I'd love to see York County (PA) added to Baltimore's MSA. I've heard Southern York County has people who commute to Baltimore but don't know much beyond that.
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Old 11-19-2017, 04:06 PM
 
Location: In the heights
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Boston's slowdown in growth over the last few years probably has a lot to do with its quickly rising cost of living. What the region needs to capitalize on is vastly improving its mass transit, especially a better usage of its vast commuter rail network, so that some of the pressure can ease with people and businesses going into the many secondary centers that the Greater Boston region can have.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:54 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
374 posts, read 345,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manitopiaaa View Post
Here's the Baltimore MSA and (for comparison) the Washington MSA:





Side-by-Side:
1900: Baltimore 736,540 vs. Washington 595,110 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore) <- Not as close as it appears. Baltimore city had 500k vs. 300k for the DC Diamond.
1910: Baltimore 815,231 vs. Washington 660,603 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore)
1920: Baltimore 947,414 vs. Washington 789,123 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore)
1930: Baltimore 1,082,927 vs. Washington 888,315 (Bigger MSA: Baltimore)
1940: Baltimore 1,189,065 vs. Washington 1,202,683 (Bigger MSA: Washington) <- The rise of the bureaucratic state under FDR saw DC grow by nearly 50%
1950: Baltimore 1,471,760 vs. Washington 1,725,041 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
1960: Baltimore 1,820,314 vs. Washington 2,344,196 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
1970: Baltimore 2,089,120 vs. Washington 3,180,343 (Bigger MSA: Washington) <- DC now 1.5x bigger than Baltimore
1980: Baltimore 2,199,497 vs. Washington 3,427,728 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
1990: Baltimore 2,382,172 vs. Washington 4,157,327 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
2000: Baltimore 2,552,994 vs. Washington 4,837,428 (Bigger MSA: Washington)
2010: Baltimore 2,710,489 vs. Washington 5,636,232 (Bigger MSA: Washington) <- DC now 2x bigger than Baltimore
2016: Baltimore 2,798,886 vs. Washington 6,131,977 (Bigger MSA: Washington)

One interesting thing is that Baltimore's MSA didn't start taking off in population until AFTER Baltimore city had peaked. Baltimore MSA's best decade was the same one that Baltimore city began to decline. This isn't really unusual among Rust Belt cities, but in the case of Cleveland and Detroit, when the center city began to decline they dragged down the whole MSAs with them. For Baltimore it's the opposite

I know it's incredibly unlikely, but I'd love to see York County (PA) added to Baltimore's MSA. I've heard Southern York County has people who commute to Baltimore but don't know much beyond that.
I appreciate you following up and providing the data. Interesting point about the region’s “golden age” decade taking place in the 1960s, a decade after the city proper’s population peak. Clearly the 1940s and FDR’s significant expansion of the federal government shifted the trajectory of our nation’s capital, leading to the present-day dynamic of the Washington Metro being roughly twice the size of the Baltimore Metro. Postindustrial Metro Baltimore weathered globalization, avoiding regional population loss, instead taking on a more steady & modest rate of economic growth.

As for York County PA, I think it’s only a matter of time. A lot of current & retired Baltimore Police & Firefighters live up there.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
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York County, besides being its own MSA, is already a part of the Harrisburg CSA. It was combined with Harrisburg in 2010, so I don't see the Census waffling on this inclusion anytime soon. It's possible, sure, but highly unlikely that Baltimore siphons off such a new addition to an emerging powerful region (now the 3rd largest metro area in PA).
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