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Old 11-22-2017, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
If that is the case, why did Obama and Democrats give Iran a pile of money, while conservative Republicans opposed it.

Conservatives big thing is freedom which isn't consistent with a theocracy. I have never heard of conservatives in this country pushing for laws to tell women what to wear, for example.

In my view, extremist version of conservatism would be similar to libertarianism (spell check), anarchy as somebody implied my fantasy country would be, even though it wouldn't be.

Moreover, simply being religious is not conservatism. THere are religious liberals and non-conservatives. Keep in mind the blue laws in the south were put into placed when it was owned by Democrat party but have been voted down in many districts now that they are majority Republican.

I was expecting somebody to suggest the Nazi Germany as an example of one party conservative country.
This is false, if you look up all the dry or "moist" counties that still exist in this country, the vast majority are still in the old Confederate states

And conservative politicians don't truly care about freedom, that is libertarians, you are confusing them
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,583 posts, read 4,006,044 times
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There are blue counties up north,

and all the blue laws were passed back in the day when Democrats, the Confederates, had power. Many of them have been voted down since Republicans became majority.

So lower taxes, gun rights , pushing for the right to put social security money into IRAs rather than giving to the government, free market healthcare and opposition to mandate, etc are not freedom oriented positions?

It is kind of hard to see a theocracy being big on lower taxes and free market stuff and gun rights. You'd think they want to disarm people especially.

It is hard to imagine the KKK and Redshirts back in the days being supportive of black people owning firearms. The Brits would have preferred if AMericans didn't have firearms because then there would have been no revolution. So this underscores how the support of gun rights is the epitome of freedom loving.

One issue that libertarians tend to disagree with conservatives on is abortion but I would argue that there is no liberty when life is taken away. Who among us want somebody else to decide if we live. There is a reason why life is included in those famous words, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

In my fantasy country, everybody would have right to life. Nobody who supports right to life wants to oppress people.

I guarantee you none of the people who supported abolition of slavery would have supported abortion. Slavery itself was essentially robbing people of their life, and you could argue it was even worse than that. The GOP was founded by abolitionists, thus it was founded in the name of freedom for people who could not free themselves. The GOP changed the arc of history in this country yet has received little credit for it.

As noted Ivy League scholar / ex-felon Dinesh D'souza has observed, the GOP today advocates that men and women are entitled to the fruit of their labor, which is the same argument that Lincoln made. He argued that the man who made the corn should eat the corn. That is what support of lower taxes is all about.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 11-22-2017 at 07:05 PM..
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Research Triangle Area, NC
3,758 posts, read 2,569,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
If that is the case, why did Obama and Democrats give Iran a pile of money, while conservative Republicans opposed it.

Conservatives big thing is freedom which isn't consistent with a theocracy. I have never heard of conservatives in this country pushing for laws to tell women what to wear, for example.

In my view, extremist version of conservatism would be similar to libertarianism (spell check), anarchy as somebody implied my fantasy country would be, even though it wouldn't be.

Moreover, simply being religious is not conservatism. THere are religious liberals and non-conservatives. Keep in mind the blue laws in the south were put into placed when it was owned by Democrat party but have been voted down in many districts now that they are majority Republican.

I went to the First Baptist Church in Greenville in 2000 and the preacher did his sermon on advocating that climate change is real. He sounded just like Al Gore. I know some Democrats who have a religious basis for their support of high taxes.

I was expecting somebody to suggest the Nazi Germany as an example of one party conservative country.
"Hold an aspirin between your knees".

That was a snarky suggestion made by a Republican politician in reference to woman's access to birth control
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,583 posts, read 4,006,044 times
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One oddball kook does not a party make. Every party is going to have some kook voters. When talking about parties, you have to look at legislation and platforms.

The only at least valid argument that GOP has had an anti-freedom oriented stance on an issue is gay marriage, but keep in mind Democrats including Obama and Hillary also in recent pass opposed gay marriage, at least in rhetoric.

Also, there are many conservatives who don't have problem with gay marriage. That issue is tied to religion, and in general old vs young, not left-right. Not every conservative is religious as well, but liberals often conflate Christian with conservative.

But even the gay marriage stance is not prohibiting people from engaging in same sex relationships, it was only a lack of government recognition for it.

Male-female sexual relationships are unique because it is only relationship that results in pregnancy. I had always thought government recognition of marriage was about encouraging fathers to say with women that they get pregnant, and to protect women in divorce proceedings who sacrifice employment for years to take care of kids but then the father cheats or the relationship falls apart for some other reason. In other words, I always thought marriage rights were a women's right , balancing the scales type of thing.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 11-22-2017 at 07:26 PM..
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
18,927 posts, read 6,873,423 times
Reputation: 5856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
There are blue counties up north,

and all the blue laws were passed back in the day when Democrats, the Confederates, had power. Many of them have been voted down since Republicans became majority.

So lower taxes, gun rights , pushing for the right to put social security money into IRAs rather than giving to the government, free market healthcare and opposition to mandate, etc are not freedom oriented positions?

It is kind of hard to see a theocracy being big on lower taxes and free market stuff and gun rights. You'd think they want to disarm people especially.

It is hard to imagine the KKK and Redshirts back in the days being supportive of black people owning firearms. The Brits would have preferred if AMericans didn't have firearms because then there would have been no revolution. So this underscores how the support of gun rights is the epitome of freedom loving.

One issue that libertarians tend to disagree with conservatives on is abortion but I would argue that there is no liberty when life is taken away. Who among us want somebody else to decide if we live. There is a reason why life is included in those famous words, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

In my fantasy country, everybody would have right to life. Nobody who supports right to life wants to oppress people.

I guarantee you none of the people who supported abolition of slavery would have supported abortion. Slavery itself was essentially robbing people of their life, and you could argue it was even worse than that. The GOP was founded by abolitionists, thus it was founded in the name of freedom for people who could not free themselves. The GOP changed the arc of history in this country yet has received little credit for it.

As noted Ivy League scholar / ex-felon Dinesh D'souza has observed, the GOP today advocates that men and women are entitled to the fruit of their labor, which is the same argument that Lincoln made. He argued that the man who made the corn should eat the corn. That is what support of lower taxes is all about.
There are no dry counties in the north though, only moist counties (alcohol sales allowed with restrictions and prohibited days or times). All the dry counties (no alcohol sales allowed whatsoever) are in Arkansas, Florida, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,583 posts, read 4,006,044 times
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Ok, again, most of blue laws, dry county stuff was passed back in the Confederate days when Democrat party owned the south. Democrat party didn't just have a majority, they dominated. For example, in 1932, 98 percent of voters in SC voted for FDR. That's probably much higher than the percentage of Democrat voters in NY and CA and other blue states today.

You've seen those laws go away in the Republican era in many counties.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
18,927 posts, read 6,873,423 times
Reputation: 5856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
Ok, again, most of blue laws, dry county stuff was passed back in the Confederate days when Democrat party owned the south. Democrat party didn't just have a majority, they dominated. For example, in 1932, 98 percent of voters in SC voted for FDR.
Yawn 🌒

As with the civil Rights act vote; the southern Democrats and northern Democrats might as well have been different parties; they had almost nothing in common other than a pro-labor stance. Get it through your head
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,583 posts, read 4,006,044 times
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During the slavery era, the northern Democrats supported slavery or at least they didn't oppose it. I understand that over time post slavery the party began to fracture along the race issue, but keep in mind the northern Democrats remained in a party with those racist southern Democrats. They could have left and started a new party.

THe GOP was the abolitionist wing of the Whig Party starting their own party.

Stephen Douglas the Democrat who ran against Lincoln was from Illinois and I believe he asserted that slavery was a 'positive good'.

Keep in mind that when the Democrats ran a non-racist northern Democrat in 1972 against Nixon they got hammered and Nixon was able to carry every southern state that year and most of the other states. The electoral college was 520-17.

Once the party could no longer rely on appeals to white racism because there was little support for it among voters, their support in the south cratered.

Note that after McGovern's epic loss to Nixon, the Democrats ran Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore, all southerners. I don't know about Jimmy Carter, but Clinton had a segregationist mentor in William Fullbright, and Al Gore's father had filibustered the Civil Rights ACt of 1964. You could say that running these southern candidates with ties to the Old South politicans was a dog whistle to white racists.

Imagine if GOP ran the son of a person who filibustered the civil rights act. The media would be having a field day. I don't recall the media even talking about fact Gore's father filibustered the civil rights act. I think I learned about that years after Gore ran.

Think about this, Democratic party gets the majority of black votes but they ran the son of a white racist who filibustered the civil rights act. That seems analogous to asking a Jew in Germany to vote for the son of Hitler with the media not mentioning he is the son of Hitler. Even if he's not like Hitler and rejects Nazism, it still would be insulting to Jews to run the son of Hitler.

The GOP is never going to nominate the son of a known racist or the protege of a known racist even though it doesn't get many black votes.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 11-22-2017 at 08:01 PM..
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Research Triangle Area, NC
3,758 posts, read 2,569,697 times
Reputation: 5394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
During the slavery era, the northern Democrats supported slavery or at least they didn't oppose it. I understand that over time post slavery the party began to fracture along the race issue, but keep in mind the northern Democrats remained in a party with those racist southern Democrats. They could have left and started a new party.

THe GOP was the abolitionist wing of the Whig Party starting their own party.

Stephen Douglas the Democrat who ran against Lincoln was from Illinois and I believe he asserted that slavery was a 'positive good'.

Keep in mind that when the Democrats ran a non-racist northern Democrat in 1972 against Nixon they got hammered and Nixon was able to carry every southern state that year and most of the other states. The electoral college was 520-17.

Once the party could no longer rely on appeals to white racism because there was little support for it among voters, their support in the south cratered.
Sounds like you don't need to worry about carving out your own Gilead....you've been living in your fantasy-land for quite a while.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,583 posts, read 4,006,044 times
Reputation: 2926
I don't think dreaming ever hurt anybody.
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