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I think it's funny how defensive people get about Pittsburgh not being labeled "Midwest". There's an underlying suggestion that there's something inferior about that label.
Defensive? No, some people just have some geography issues.
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That said, there's no way Pittsburgh is Northeast
Except that is Northeaster. Period.
Jesus, come on people.
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Somewhere in the middle of Pennsylvania the Midwest begins. Perhaps being in Appalachia it's not completely St. Louis-Detroit-Chicago Midwest, but it's well on it's way. I've driven that route alot from Washington, DC to Detroit. When I stop in Pittsburgh for gas and to eat, let's just say it's always a culture shock to remember what middle America is like. Seriously - it's like I've entered another country after being immersed in DC.
One, if you judge an area by gas stations you should grow up a little bit.
Regions have borders, just as DC is the Southern fringe of the Northeast, Pittsburgh is its Western fringe.
Regions also not completely the same within themselves.
I think it's funny how defensive people get about Pittsburgh not being labeled "Midwest". There's an underlying suggestion that there's something inferior about that label.
There is nothing inferior about the Midwest, but in the context of Pittsburgh being referred to as Midwest, the term may be. It seems as though people call it Midwest, not because of any specifically defined features, but because it's slower paced and "generic." Those who label it Midwest clearly don't know anything about Pittsburgh, they just know it is different from Washington DC or New York so it must be Midwest. That difference is much more easily attributable to Appalachia as Pittsburgh is in Appalachia, with coal mines, enjoyes hunting and fishing, social conservatism, religion, etc.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
That said, there's no way Pittsburgh is Northeast. It's a completely different culture. Somewhere in the middle of Pennsylvania the Midwest begins. Perhaps being in Appalachia it's not completely St. Louis-Detroit-Chicago Midwest, but it's well on it's way. I've driven that route alot from Washington, DC to Detroit. When I stop in Pittsburgh for gas and to eat, let's just say it's always a culture shock to remember what middle America is like. Seriously - it's like I've entered another country after being immersed in DC.
Again, we don't have anything specific, just, "It's a completely different culture."
And if you're driving from DC to Detroit, then you're probably taking the PA turnpike...stopping along there probably won't give you much of a sense for the character of the city of Pittsburgh.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
The argument that quaint Victorian brownstones make Pittsburgh Northeast would therefore make Chicago Northeast as well. Obviously, it's not.
I believe I said Chicago was an exception. Also, I didn't realize that Chicago was in a Northeastern state or anywhere near the Northeast. I think the fact that row houses are found in large quantities in all the major Northeastern cities and the Mid-Atlantic in particular, while most other cities don't have a whole lot of them, is therefore, something that unites the Northeast.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
Baltimore's always been that East Coast city holding down the industrial Midwest vibe. The Chesapeake Bay serves as a sort of mini Great Lake in the way the Great Lakes built so many Midwestern cities in the U.S. and Canada. Baltimore's fate has been very similar to the Midwestern cities - with extravagantly wealthy suburbs to the north and an extravagantly impoverished city. But, by location alone, it can't be denied. People can say what they want, but there is a strong cultural line south of DC that begins the South. DC and Baltimore are fully connected to the Northeast. Baltimore for its industrial history and DC for its government power structure that creates a far stronger link to New York than any Southern city.
I get a totally different vibe in Baltimore. To me, B-More feels much more like an East Coast city; Plus it looks like one with density, rowhouses, a sea port.
state boundaries are insignificant. You can't just say Pittsburgh has to be northeastern because it's in PA. I think you can. Why have state boundaries otherwise? Pittsburgh is in Pennsylvania. Its laws are those of Pennsylvania. Pittsburghers pay taxes to Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh is Pennsylvania! I've already said this, but coming from one of the western counties of PA that borders Ohio, we think of ourselves as Pennsylvanians! As a kid (and this was in the administration of Abraham Lincoln, LOL), we thought Ohio was more rural, farm country. Even if that wasn't accurate, we knew we were different!
That being said the first 5 on the list are unquestionably northeast. I often like to claim that Staten Island isn't really the northeast but clearly it is, and so is Jersey and Philly.
Baltimore is the next one to be questioned, along with DC. I'd say it ISN'T the northeast but I see where the arguments are.
Pittsburgh is definitely less northeast than Baltimore or DC even. Sure if you look at a map it's in the northeast quadrant of the country but we all know that is meaningless. Pittsburgh seems to be much more tied to Ohio cities and cities like Buffalo and Rochester than to Philly or NYC.
Boston and Philly have more in common than Boston and Pittsburgh. I think that's a weird comparsion. If you wanted to make a point it'd make a whole lot more sense to compare Philadelphia to both. I'm not sure who you're talking to, but if it's me, I'm not so sure. All three of these cities have huge ethnic white populations with to this day, their traditions and customs. Philly probably has the best laid-out road system of the three; Pittsburgh's and Boston's are equivalently difficult to navigate.
Another point I feel compelled to make is the intense discussion of Pittsburgh on this website. I'll plead ignorance because before going on this website my knowledge or Pittsburgh consisted of it's sports teams and that it has something to do with steel. But based on it's sports teams and that something to do with steel it sounds a lot like it might as well be in Ohio. Along with Houston and North Carolina, Pittsburgh is a pretty random place that gets a ton of hype on this website. Someday I'd love to go there because it must be a pretty cool place but until then I'll just stay in the northeast.
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Originally Posted by JoeP
Defensive? No, some people just have some geography issues. For once, I agree with you, JoeP.
Except that is Northeaster. Period.
Jesus, come on people.
One, if you judge an area by gas stations you should grow up a little bit.
Regions have borders, just as DC is the Southern fringe of the Northeast, Pittsburgh is its Western fringe.
Regions also not completely the same within themselves.
Honestly, people need to get out more.
We agree again. This same discussion is going on regarding the midwest, as if Cleveland and Omaha should be exactly the same b/c they are both in the midwest!
I knew someone (in this case 2 people) would believe my greatest exposure to Pittsburgh was gas stations by what I said. I was going to correct it but didn't.
I've spent time in Pittsburgh. I used to go there a lot for work. I know people from there. I think it's an interesting city. Smaller than one might imagine given its broad name recognition, a rather boring downtown and hard to catch a cab in, but a very interesting and dynamic city that's not generic. Perhaps your own bias against the Midwest is there in that assumption about "slower paced and generic". Try driving a Detroit highway at less than 80 mph and get back to me about slower pace.
Plus, who wouldn't want to live in Pittsburgh after seeing Wonder Boys?!? Nevertheless, it's somewhere between the Northeast and the Midwest, but far more Midwest in my humble opinion.
Also - state boundaries do not define a region. Michigan, for example, has two very distinct regions - the lower half which is more agricultural and industrial and similar to Ohio, and the northern half which is more forested and coastal with many harbor cities (thus similarities to Baltimore) and more similar to Minnesota / Maine. Likewise, I don't think many people would lump San Diego and San Francisco in the same region.
But - none of this matters. Who cares what region a place is? It is what it is. It's only us that have to categorize everything so we can control it.
Who said I have an anti-midwest bias? I'm just saying Pittsburgh is not the midwest. Does saying say, Colorado is not the Pacific coast, mean I have an anti-Pacific coast bias?
I happen to be one of the few on this entire City-Data forum who thinks there is not a great deal of difference in the pace of life in the different regions of the country. I've driven through Chicago and other midwestern cities. I've seen videos of the Chicago Board of Trade. It's not Mayberry. If there is a difference in pace of life, I'd say it's urban v rural rather than regional.
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Also - state boundaries do not define a region. Michigan, for example, has two very distinct regions - the lower half which is more agricultural and industrial and similar to Ohio, and the northern half which is more forested and coastal with many harbor cities (thus similarities to Baltimore) and more similar to Minnesota / Maine. Likewise, I don't think many people would lump San Diego and San Francisco in the same region.
The UP of Michigan is still Michigan. Ask a few yuppers (sp?). They'd be appalled if you compared their area with Baltimore! Minnesota itself is a state of many contrasts, from the big city of Minneapolis-St.Paul to the mining country in the north; to the northwoods; to the farmlands in the southern part of the state. But it's all Minnesota and it's not Michigan! SD and SF? Depends on what you are talking about. They're both in California; they're both on the Pacific coast; they're both in the western US. One is in Norcal and one is in Socal.
I knew someone (in this case 2 people) would believe my greatest exposure to Pittsburgh was gas stations by what I said. I was going to correct it but didn't.
I've spent time in Pittsburgh. I used to go there a lot for work. I know people from there. I think it's an interesting city. Smaller than one might imagine given its broad name recognition, a rather boring downtown and hard to catch a cab in, but a very interesting and dynamic city that's not generic. Perhaps your own bias against the Midwest is there in that assumption about "slower paced and generic". Try driving a Detroit highway at less than 80 mph and get back to me about slower pace.
Plus, who wouldn't want to live in Pittsburgh after seeing Wonder Boys?!? Nevertheless, it's somewhere between the Northeast and the Midwest, but far more Midwest in my humble opinion.
Also - state boundaries do not define a region. Michigan, for example, has two very distinct regions - the lower half which is more agricultural and industrial and similar to Ohio, and the northern half which is more forested and coastal with many harbor cities (thus similarities to Baltimore) and more similar to Minnesota / Maine. Likewise, I don't think many people would lump San Diego and San Francisco in the same region.
But - none of this matters. Who cares what region a place is? It is what it is. It's only us that have to categorize everything so we can control it.
I think the point is this: that you and nearly everyone else who calls Pittsburgh "Midwestern" does so without any substantiation. The only reason anyone offers for it being Midwestern is, "I went there and it didn't seem like the east coast to me." Well, I live here and I don't see much that is Midwestern about it...I see Appalachia and I see the East Coast and I gave my reasons for such in many previous posts. It is just a broad generalization of someone who doesn't know what it is, so they'll call it the Midwest--thus, possibly "generic" in the mind of those who call it such.
I've spent time in Pittsburgh. I used to go there a lot for work. I know people from there. I think it's an interesting city. Smaller than one might imagine given its broad name recognition, a rather boring downtown and hard to catch a cab in, but a very interesting and dynamic city that's not generic. Perhaps your own bias against the Midwest is there in that assumption about "slower paced and generic". Try driving a Detroit highway at less than 80 mph and get back to me about slower pace.
Perhaps you should abandon the irrelevant points. Fast and slowness have nothing to do with anything. And this has nothing to do with the Midwest or being better or worse than the Midwest.
Most any city is "slow" compared to NYC, but NYC does not = the Northeast. It's a city in the Northeast, just as is Pittsburgh, DC, Buffalo, Erie, New Haven, Philly, Harrisburg, Rochester and many others are. However there are similarities and differences in each of these cities.
Yawn. how typical. "oh Baltimroes so bad! don't comapare that dump of a city with mine" gettin old
I think you misunderstood. It's just not Baltimore! Would you compare Baltimore with Leadville, Colorado, for example? Both are industrial towns. But there is simply no comparison. The UP of Michigan is rural, Baltimore is not. And I don't believe I ever said anything about Baltimore before, positive or negative.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 03-27-2008 at 02:46 PM..
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