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Old 04-07-2018, 11:59 AM
 
56,991 posts, read 81,344,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
I think that Buffalo is somewhere in the 16-25 range in that top list



Also Worcester, Syracuse and Springfield are impressive because they are the smallest metros on that list (Worcester has a super inflated MSA)
This is considering that the metro lost a county for the last official census.
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Old 04-07-2018, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster View Post
The city boundaries are extremely variant from city to city, which is why it makes no sense to compare them. There are some like Minneapolis, Boston, and Pittsburgh which have small city limits from historical reasons.

and then there are some like Columbus or Indianapolis or Jacksonville which basically annexed their entire county. They are technically cities, but most of the area within city boundaries were/are suburbs in built form and density. For example Columbus has 4 times the land area of Minneapolis, and is much less dense and urban. Jacksonville has FOURTEEN TIMES the land area of Minneapolis, and is far less dense and urban. You cannot compare cities by their paper boundaries and expect to get anything that makes sense.

MSAs are supposed to be standarized to use fo comparion, and are much better than using city boundaries, but of course they have their own problems. Some people like using Urbanized Area, which is really the urban + suburban areas.
Exactly this. Miami and Atlanta are 7% and 8% of the total population of their metro areas because of annexation laws in their respective states. There are exceptions to this rule of course, but eastern states seem to have tougher annexation laws than western states. Texas and Arizona cities annex like mad. And one must also look at cities that have consolidated with their counties and take that into account.... Jacksonville, Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville are examples.

Any looking at city population and using that as a rod for measuring a city's overall importance is never a good tool. Who really thinks Jacksonville and Columbus are twice the size of Atlanta and Miami?
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
Not sure where 38 or 28 square miles comes from. San Francisco is 46.9 sq mi land area. Total land area in Buffalo is 40.2 sq miles.
Read the introduction to that post. And then read the responses. I mixed up Miami and SF's area size, and then used the closest measurement from the smallest area size of the top 50 largest cities.
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Any looking at city population and using that as a rod for measuring a city's overall importance is never a good tool. Who really thinks Jacksonville and Columbus are twice the size of Atlanta and Miami?
Oh but they're out there. Jacksonville and San Francisco have virtually the same city population, but in order for anyone to believe that JAX and SFO are the same size they must also convince themselves that these two bars are the same size.


Yet no matter how many ways you illustrate it, no matter how articulate you make the argument, there will always be the next person that needs to be educated, after they tell you that "El Paso is bigger than Detroit".

The war will never be won, and the battles will never stop coming. We can never give up the fight against the "city pop believers". It is simply our burden to bear.
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Old 04-07-2018, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
To be honest, I think quite a few cities on the list would need to be adjusted, when looking at that land size.


For instance, Syracuse is already 25 square miles. So, the population would be about 150-155,000.
Something to remember about those population stats... they are NOT based on existing city boundaries, only the cumulative population at ever-increasing distances from each city's core. This means that they are not going to match the boundary populations. The measurement is only to try to find the equivalent population of each city if they were the same area size. It is not without its flaws, but it's really the only measurement we have to directly compare the population of cities by size that uses Census data. It is meant to eliminate the arguments about how cities have different boundaries.


As for Syracuse, is 150K at 25sq. miles so different than 199 at just over 28? So 49K people, roughly, would've lived in those additional square miles.
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Old 04-07-2018, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
7,531 posts, read 10,119,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
Oh but they're out there. Jacksonville and San Francisco have virtually the same city population, but in order for anyone to believe that JAX and SFO are the same size they must also convince themselves that these two bars are the same size.


Yet no matter how many ways you illustrate it, no matter how articulate you make the argument, there will always be the next person that needs to be educated, after they tell you that "El Paso is bigger than Detroit".

The war will never be won, and the battles will never stop coming. We can never give up the fight against the "city pop believers". It is simply our burden to bear.
I stopped reading the thread when I came upon the post I quoted and made my above comments. I have since read more comments and see that folks have run with this theme and extrapolated all kinds of comparisons since then lol.


As a Georgia native, I do have to point out that local state laws do make these things difficult to make apples to apples comparisons. In Georgia, the suburban counties act like municipalities, providing police, water, sewer, schools, etc, etc... the things that in other states must come from a municipality... and therefore have laws that restrict annexations. So looking even beyond the city of Atlanta, you don't see as many large suburbs outside the central city either. Sandy Springs just recently passed the 100k mark, Atlanta's first suburb to reach that.


In comparison, DFW, which is larger than Atlanta but not by terribly much has not only the core cities with much higher populations than Atlanta but has Arlington nearing 400k, Plano nearing 300K, Irving and Garland over 200k and Frisco, McKinney, Allen, Richardson, Carrollton, Mesquite, Grand Prairie, Lewisville and Denton over the 100k mark.

You do have the ability in Georgia to merge city and county easier than to annex. Since Fulton County is full of other cities, Atlanta hasn't done this, but Augusta, Columbus, Macon and Athens have all done this in the past few decades. Columbus did this about the time Jacksonville did, the others much later. But Georgia counties are much smaller than Florida counties, so that is why Jacksonville is such an outlier in these comparisons.
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Exactly this. Miami and Atlanta are 7% and 8% of the total population of their metro areas because of annexation laws in their respective states. There are exceptions to this rule of course, but eastern states seem to have tougher annexation laws than western states. Texas and Arizona cities annex like mad. And one must also look at cities that have consolidated with their counties and take that into account.... Jacksonville, Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville are examples.

Any looking at city population and using that as a rod for measuring a city's overall importance is never a good tool. Who really thinks Jacksonville and Columbus are twice the size of Atlanta and Miami?
For Atlanta, it's not so much about annexation laws as it is about the historical relationships between Atlanta and surrounding areas based on demographics and politics that made annexation difficult and the geography of Fulton County which is actually the result of the merger of two adjacent counties (Campbell to the south and Milton to the north) with Fulton, complicating the logistics of a city-county merger. Combine that with Republicans opening the door for the creation of new municipalities in the state when they became the majority party in 2004 for the first time since Reconstruction--and 10 new municipalities having been created in metro Atlanta since then with more proposed--and that better explains Atlanta's relatively small population compared to its metro population.
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:37 AM
 
9,419 posts, read 9,598,086 times
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Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
For Atlanta, it's not so much about annexation laws as it is about the historical relationships between Atlanta and surrounding areas based on demographics and politics that made annexation difficult and the geography of Fulton County which is actually the result of the merger of two adjacent counties (Campbell to the south and Milton to the north) with Fulton, complicating the logistics of a city-county merger. Combine that with Republicans opening the door for the creation of new municipalities in the state when they became the majority party in 2004 for the first time since Reconstruction--and 10 new municipalities having been created in metro Atlanta since then with more proposed--and that better explains Atlanta's relatively small population compared to its metro population.
Also Atlanta doesn't really have particularly small city limits, nobody says Philly or Detriot are hemmed in by tiny city limits and they're about the same size.
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Old 04-08-2018, 08:23 AM
 
56,991 posts, read 81,344,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Something to remember about those population stats... they are NOT based on existing city boundaries, only the cumulative population at ever-increasing distances from each city's core. This means that they are not going to match the boundary populations. The measurement is only to try to find the equivalent population of each city if they were the same area size. It is not without its flaws, but it's really the only measurement we have to directly compare the population of cities by size that uses Census data. It is meant to eliminate the arguments about how cities have different boundaries.


As for Syracuse, is 150K at 25sq. miles so different than 199 at just over 28? So 49K people, roughly, would've lived in those additional square miles.
Donít get me wrong. If Syracuse appears to have more people at that land size, that is cool. I was curious as to how the 28 square miles were drawn out given the cityís current land size.
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Old 04-08-2018, 09:01 AM
 
30,006 posts, read 27,563,598 times
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Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Also Atlanta doesn't really have particularly small city limits, nobody says Philly or Detriot are hemmed in by tiny city limits and they're about the same size.
It's true that Atlanta's city limits aren't particularly small although it's on the slightly smaller side by Southern/Sunbelt standards.

I kinda see your point with Philly and Detroit, but the 'how' and 'when' make for considerable differences. Philly consolidated with its county in 1854 and essentially hemmed itself in as it cannot annex surrounding properties, but the consolidation was obviously very beneficial. Detroit stopped annexing in the mid-1920s when the state legislature passed a law making it harder for cities to annex. Both cities grew up in a different era and reached their peak populations in the mid-20th century, near 2M for Detroit and just over 2M for Philly, and they still have a lot of the infrastructure that testifies to this. Atlanta is in a unique position in comparison by being a younger city and growing up when suburbanization was in full swing in the U.S., so it never captured the type of growth seen in Northern cities during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Typical city-suburb dynamics made it difficult for Atlanta to undergo any big annexations since the 1950s and this only worsened since the "reverse migration" took hold in the 70s and Atlanta began receiving an influx of Black migrants with the city's leadership becoming increasingly Blacker. And since the state legislature made it possible for new municipalities to form in 2004, any chances of substantial annexation happening pretty much went out the window. So basically even though Detroit and Philly are similar to Atlanta in physical size, they had high population peaks and huge industrial bases in the cities proper that essentially established them as THE city for the region, period. Atlanta's situation did not confer the same benefits; even though it is obviously the commercial and cultural heart of the metro, the business district with the most commercial square footage (Perimeter) isn't within the city and other notable business districts like Cumberland and Alpharetta lie beyond the city's borders as well.
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