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I didn't say that's how it works. I'm well aware that politicos and developers are not the final say but they are the entities that start kicking the can ..... New Kent County is largely rural and is one of the fastest growing counties in Virginia, it sends commuters to both RVA and Hampton Roads, it is equidistant. I understand the "commuting criteria".
The local media have reported the political/development aspects of an RVA/HR CSA ramping up within the last year.
What would I do without your helpful guidance here on CD? You are indeed a never ending font of knowledge....
So local developers and politicians are encouraging and creating sprawl just to create a Richmond/HR CSA?
And please stop getting in your feelings and taking this stuff personally. It's really not that serious.
And same for Trenton? Its in neither the New York or Philadelphia area?
Allentown is its own metro, but it doesn't have a CSA. Monroe county, PA (East Stroudsburg), a potential CSA county for Allentown, is a part of New York CSA. It would be very surprising if NY would lose it to Allentown, especially with the expansion of passenger rail connection to NYC (Lackawanna Cutoff project connecting Scranton to NYC via Hoboken will go through East Stroudsburg). Those PA rustbelt towns don't really have a ton of job growth, so more and more people are commuting to core NYC counties for jobs.
Trenton is still part of New York CSA, since its in the same county as Princeton, and you can't split counties.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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I notice my comment was deleted due to the person I replied to's comment being deleted. I will just go ahead and reiterate.
MSA's too have inaccuracies in them. DC MSA just added rural Madison county, VA (13k people) which is 85-90 miles from the District proper. Yet there are two county's 18-20 miles from the District that are cut off by the adjacent MSA to our North. I have no problem with it because their ties are closer to Baltimore. However, those two counties combined make up over 850,000 people. And there is no gap when transferring MSA's. I am certain that more than 13k people in either Howard or AA counties not only commute to, but spend time doing other activities in DC's core counties or the District itself, and more so than people in Madison County, Virginia. This is why the combination of the DC-Balt MSA's to create their CSA make perfect sense. They are separate but whole in some general sense.
So this holier than thou mentality towards MSA is hogwash in some instances because they too also go by counties only having to meet a lower threshold with adjacent core counties to be added to the "metro area". The egregious part of the CSA is the addition of counties not in either cities core makeup of the MSA way out in Wva and PA to gather up a total population of 10 million. But in actuality still the two MSA's together are at least 9 mil.
Not surprised Modesto was added to the Bay Area CSA but kind of was about Merced, its closer to Fresno than San Jose. Stockton, Modesto, and Merced definitely don't fit in or are as connected as the other MSA's to the Bay Area but I guess they send enough commuters to be included. Given housing prices I guess that should be expected.
So local developers and politicians are encouraging and creating sprawl just to create a Richmond/HR CSA?
Seems ridiculous. But in one sense, by proposing road/interstate expansions, creating business partnerships and supporting far-flung residential developments, they're just trying to facilitate growth that's already there. Way back in 2014, there were already more than 86,000 people commuting for work between Hampton Roads and RVA. https://wtkr.com/2017/11/20/can-hamp...-a-megaregion/ . That's probably more than someone might expect, but keep in mind, for example, that Richmond's airport is only about 35 minutes from Williamsburg and 45 or so minutes from Newport News.
My fear is that if irresponsible development ends up with commuters splitting hairs between the two regions, rather than creating a CSA, you get the Caroline County result, where counties are completely removed from either MSA even though they remain important socially or economically to the region. There's just too many MSAs next to each other (but far enough apart) with gravitas to have any of them form the right commuter patterns to form a new CSA, imho - if that's their hope.
So local developers and politicians are encouraging and creating sprawl just to create a Richmond/HR CSA?
And please stop getting in your feelings and taking this stuff personally. It's really not that serious.
Again with the jabbing, first sentence prime example. No, it's not that serious, your condescending attitude on some of these threads needs some toning down, thats whats semi serious. You provide good information from time to time but you spin things to your intellectual advantage by downplaying/trivializing what others say, again, that first sentence up top being prime example. There really is no need to talk down to folks, it's not a good look and really doesn't garner any respect. Make your points, refrain from needling and the world of CD could be your oyster.
I rest my case....
Last edited by Poquoson7; 09-17-2018 at 12:55 PM..
Again with the jabbing, first sentence prime example. No, it's not that serious, your condescending attitude on some of these threads needs some toning down, thats whats semi serious. You provide good information from time to time but you spin things to your intellectual advantage by downplaying/trivializing what others say, again, that first sentence up top being prime example. There really is no need to talk down to folks, it's not a good look and really doesn't garner any respect. Make your points, refrain from needling and the world of CD could be your oyster.
I rest my case....
Wait a second. You think this statement, "So local developers and politicians are encouraging and creating sprawl just to create a Richmond/HR CSA?" was a PERSONAL JAB? You can't be serious...that's beyond preposterous and you're being way too sensitive unless you yourself are a local politician or developer. Sorry but I'm not doing this extra tiptoeing around your posts because you find a way to be offended by the most innocuous of statements wherein people merely state disagreement with you (as you also found a way to do with your response to lammius). Block me if it's that 'semi-serious' to you.
Yea while over inflated in most parts of the country, I don't understand the resentment from certain posters specifically because their CSA is getting passed up by another one which pulls in more commuters. That essentially IS the "purpose" of the CSA to provide some level of a picture of what regions have commuter ties in relative to the core cities of the CSA, regardless of immediate metro area influence. The CSA is not a measurement of metropolitan areas! Although it could combine two or more.
You want to meet the criteria, have the numbers that connect enough dots, simple as that.
well they are far reaching
The Philly and NYC MSAs meet CSA connection based on commuters but they don't combine them because it doesn't reflect the real world, stats are important but for the most part DC surpassing 10M to me grossly overstates the size of the real metro. Chicago feels like 10M, DC feels more the size of Philly or Houston and not a Chicago. SF also doesn't feel like a 10M metro, probably more like 6-7M ish (basically the inner bay areas)
SF and SJ are one truly cohesive unit (Akron and Cleveland probably are too) DC and Baltimore have connection and commuter interplay but not at the same level (fewer absolute people commute across the Balt/DC border for work then do across the NYC and Philly MSAs, just the denominator is bigger.
I think the issue is when you look at say Herndon VA and lets say White Marsh MD - very much burbs of their respective metros its a little silly to say they are really that connected and this to me is where the size aspects falls apart
Is there a fairly continuous blob of people with overlap sure, but DC and Balt don't function as one place
The inner Bay does significantly moreso - (not the far flung super commuter areas so much)
And same for Trenton? Its in neither the New York or Philadelphia area?
Trenton was once part of the Philly MSA but has been its own MSA for 25 years now
Allentown has always been its own MSA, last go round was aligned to the NYC CSA, now is not
that is a perfect example of the fickleness of these connections; most of the growth in that MSA has been in parts closer to 476 and the Philly MSA but still not enough to push that pendulum to the Philly MSA
Trenton is a weird one in that it makes a CSA connection to both the NYC and Philly MSAs but continues to get grouped with NYC at the CSA level (Philly and NYC actually meet a CSA connection via Burlington county which meets the MSA connection with Philly and CSA threshold for commuters to NYC counties
it just gets more grey when large MSAs are in close proximity to one another
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