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Old 10-22-2018, 07:58 AM
 
6 posts, read 1,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sad_hotline View Post
It's a socio-cultural regional concept enshrined in history, carried into the present for census convenience.

You can apply your argument to any region in the US. The coastal Mid-Atlantic is extremely different than the Appalachian Mid Atlantic, for instance.

If one applied themselves, they could divvy up the US by differences between streets. I'm not saying you're wrong: I personally distinguish northern and southern New England, but expecting non-Northeasterners to be familiar with all the stats you rattle off is just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's like someone from Alaska wondering why you don't know the socioeconomic/ethnic/religious/weather divisions in their area.

Beautiful post, which sums up most of this forum.

People here are obsessed with stats that make their city look good. Nothing more. Nobody is changing anyone's minds.

I still don't get the New England thing, and I grew up near Albany, NY. Maybe it's because it's too similar to Upstate NY.
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:38 AM
 
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To the last post I don’t find N.E. similar to upstate New York. Everything seems different there. New York doesn’t have the same history of puritan settlers forming towns under English colonialism. It had this Dutch mercantile-commercial history where certain wealthy people had patents — huge landholdings — and the towns weren’t communal in any sense but just crossroads and service places. Even today NY is organized very differently— strong county government, towns that are just administrative areas than actual communities, incorporated villages that are communities, school districts non-contiguous with town boundaries. In NY you vote for judges and there are no referendums of significance. NY is a lot more agricultural than NE too— lots of open pasture and crop land. You see it immediately crossing over from Conn, Mass, Vermont.

OP makes a good argument. Southern NE has much more cultural diversity than northern and it’s better distributed than in some states too, not as much as NJ, Maryland, or any of the southern states. You have lots of Portuguese spread around southeastern NE, Brazilians pretty well distributed in Metro West, and AA in many places. Latino/Hispanic seem more concentrated in cities than other groups but there are so many cities all over Mass, RI, Conn which is quite different from the geography in many other states. New England has lots of native Americans around too and not as many on reservations as among the general population.

To me as a white male with Puritan ancestry the thing that makes all these states one region is the history of white settlers forming towns throughout the region. That town structure with its centers and commons and town meetings is the distinguishing thing about New England. No other part of the country has that kind of participatory local politics & governance. Makes for parochialism, inefficiency and inequity in metropolitan areas like Hartford and Boston but has its merits too. The Yankees aren’t the dominant group any more but whoever lives in these towns, the mix of people with African, European, Asian and Central/South American heritage, plus Native, all get to be part of this local politics.

Minor points: maple syrup is a big thing in western Mass as much as upper New England but over a much smaller territory.
The commercial fishery is pan-New England.
Similar landscapes from south to north— the stone walls, second growth forest everywhere, white pine and sugar maple everywhere, ponds and lakes in much greater number than many regions (Adks and Minnesota excepted).
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:09 AM
 
56,770 posts, read 81,126,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missionhill View Post
To the last post I don’t find N.E. similar to upstate New York. Everything seems different there. New York doesn’t have the same history of puritan settlers forming towns under English colonialism. It had this Dutch mercantile-commercial history where certain wealthy people had patents — huge landholdings — and the towns weren’t communal in any sense but just crossroads and service places. Even today NY is organized very differently— strong county government, towns that are just administrative areas than actual communities, incorporated villages that are communities, school districts non-contiguous with town boundaries. In NY you vote for judges and there are no referendums of significance. NY is a lot more agricultural than NE too— lots of open pasture and crop land. You see it immediately crossing over from Conn, Mass, Vermont.

OP makes a good argument. Southern NE has much more cultural diversity than northern and it’s better distributed than in some states too, not as much as NJ, Maryland, or any of the southern states. You have lots of Portuguese spread around southeastern NE, Brazilians pretty well distributed in Metro West, and AA in many places. Latino/Hispanic seem more concentrated in cities than other groups but there are so many cities all over Mass, RI, Conn which is quite different from the geography in many other states. New England has lots of native Americans around too and not as many on reservations as among the general population.

To me as a white male with Puritan ancestry the thing that makes all these states one region is the history of white settlers forming towns throughout the region. That town structure with its centers and commons and town meetings is the distinguishing thing about New England. No other part of the country has that kind of participatory local politics & governance. Makes for parochialism, inefficiency and inequity in metropolitan areas like Hartford and Boston but has its merits too. The Yankees aren’t the dominant group any more but whoever lives in these towns, the mix of people with African, European, Asian and Central/South American heritage, plus Native, all get to be part of this local politics.

Minor points: maple syrup is a big thing in western Mass as much as upper New England but over a much smaller territory.
The commercial fishery is pan-New England.
Similar landscapes from south to north— the stone walls, second growth forest everywhere, white pine and sugar maple everywhere, ponds and lakes in much greater number than many regions (Adks and Minnesota excepted).
The thing I hear when comparing NY to New England is that NY is more blue collar, instead of being more agricultural.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
The thing I hear when comparing NY to New England is that NY is more blue collar, instead of being more agricultural.

Most cities even small cities were mill towns in New England.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:13 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
The thing I hear when comparing NY to New England is that NY is more blue collar, instead of being more agricultural.
Mission is right about the farms though. It is not exactly that New York is covered with farms while New England is not, both are heavily forested. But New York is heavily forested while New England is VERY heavily forested. So parts of New York look farm rich compared to New England overall. But in reality both New York and New England, are farm poor and far more forested then compared to the Midwest.

Having said that, the New England states do have scattered farms around (look at a satellite view) and also some decent sized farming districts, the Connecticut river valley in Massachusetts and Connecticut, the area near Lake Champlain in Vermont and northern Maine.

Anyway, it is ironic that regarding the farms in New York State (especially Central and Western New York) and also eastern Long Island, many of them I suspect are being farmed by people who have New England roots. By the Civil War, something like 1 out of every 6 New Yorkers had been born in New England. They essentially abandoned their older farms in hilly parts of New England and moved into flatter or more productive parts of New York near the Great Lakes.

A final note, I do disagree with Mission about strong county governments in New York, by national standards anyway. I would say that the county government types in New York State (NYC borough, traditional and charter) are weak to moderate by national standards. Even the new charter types like my county of Suffolk.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:14 AM
 
613 posts, read 510,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
The thing I hear when comparing NY to New England is that NY is more blue collar, instead of being more agricultural.
upstate NY is just more rural that's the big difference most similar to western MA out of anyplace in New England
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I do disagree with Mission about strong county governments in New York, by national standards anyway. I would say that the county government types in New York State (NYC borough, traditional and charter) are weak to moderate by national standards. Even the new charter types like my county of Suffolk.
You may be right about New York by national standards but compared to New England, New York counties do a lot—police, libraries, solid waste, urban planning.

As to the blue collar thing, there’s certainly a lot of rural upscale territory in New England, in the Berkshires, NW Connecticut, many places in Vermont and New Hampshire, coastal Maine, etc., but I’m sure you could match that in New York. But if its real farm country then it should logically be more blue collar than the gentleman farms around Millbrook and Millerton (NY) and Litchfield, Ct. My impression is New York has more “real farm country” although with little experience in interior Maine my impression is probably inaccurate. New York also has lots of forested blue collar in the Adirondack and Catskill regions.
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:16 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missionhill View Post
You may be right about New York by national standards but compared to New England, New York counties do a lot—police, libraries, solid waste, urban planning.

As to the blue collar thing, there’s certainly a lot of rural upscale territory in New England, in the Berkshires, NW Connecticut, many places in Vermont and New Hampshire, coastal Maine, etc., but I’m sure you could match that in New York. But if its real farm country then it should logically be more blue collar than the gentleman farms around Millbrook and Millerton (NY) and Litchfield, Ct. My impression is New York has more “real farm country” although with little experience in interior Maine my impression is probably inaccurate. New York also has lots of forested blue collar in the Adirondack and Catskill regions.
Actually, I don't think most New York counties do most or even none of what you mention at all.

For instance, I live in Suffolk County, one of the counties that became a new stronger Charter type county. Charter counties were developed to deal with regional problems regarding suburban grow after WW2. Historically New York counties were weaker and primarily dealt with the county sheriff office (very similar to traditional New England counties). But today, while more advanced, even the Charter counties are still limited when compared to national standards.

For example in Suffolk:
--- the County police are in 5 of the 10 towns but the other 5 towns still have town police.
--- the libraries are run by the school districts or by the towns (in Suffolk, the Town of Smithtown)
--- solid waste - the towns collect the garbage
--- urban planning - land use, zoning, building permits, building codes - all done by the towns

And that is Suffolk, one of the more advanced counties in New York. Upstate, the counties tend to have an even more limited traditional type of county government.
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Old 10-22-2018, 01:01 PM
 
1,817 posts, read 3,433,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Actually, I don't think most New York counties do most or even none of what you mention at all.

For instance, I live in Suffolk County, one of the counties that became a new stronger Charter type county. Charter counties were developed to deal with regional problems regarding suburban grow after WW2. Historically New York counties were weaker and primarily dealt with the county sheriff office (very similar to traditional New England counties). But today, while more advanced, even the Charter counties are still limited when compared to national standards.

For example in Suffolk:
--- the County police are in 5 of the 10 towns but the other 5 towns still have town police.
--- the libraries are run by the school districts or by the towns (in Suffolk, the Town of Smithtown)
--- solid waste - the towns collect the garbage
--- urban planning - land use, zoning, building permits, building codes - all done by the towns

And that is Suffolk, one of the more advanced counties in New York. Upstate, the counties tend to have an even more limited traditional type of county government.
Interesting, LI Native. I stand corrected
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:58 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,141 posts, read 9,927,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missionhill View Post
Interesting, LI Native. I stand corrected
Thanks but I think I need to correct to myself as well. I have been looking at different county websites so I now believe the New England local government system - weak counties with strong local governments outside cities that are called "towns" is pretty similar from one NE state to another. In another words, while there are some minor differences between the 6 states, the OP is basically wrong.

Not surprisingly, there are also some states in the Northeast and the Upper Midwest that have some similarities with New England but overall New England is very unique . For example, if you look at some Essex counties in different states, you can see a New England type in Massachusetts, a moderate hybrid type in New York and a stronger more typical standard type in Virginia.

https://www.essexsheriffma.org/home NEW ENGLAND type (Essex County, Massachusetts - basically just the Sheriff department) Population 743,000. Pretty interesting historic county btw.

https://www.co.essex.ny.us/wp/ A hybrid type government (Essex County, New York) Population 39,000. Note on the County website the link to the "Towns" right at top center.

http://www.essex-virginia.org/county...s_and_services (Essex County, Virginia) Population 11,000. Note how well developed this county government is, for a population of only 11,000 people !

I think it is interesting that the county with the least amount of people, Essex County in Virginia, has the most developed county government.
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