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That’s kind of the point, it is provincial and NH, VT and ME are in the in crowd and NY and NJ are not. That means something
Wow, not exactly the answer I was expecting!
But then it does prove the OP's point to a degree. White collar educated people in urban/suburban southern New England are trying to connect themselves to a quaint small town lifestyle found today mostly in rural upper New England, when they really have more in common these days with cities and suburbs in the Mid-Atlantic and perhaps other parts of the country.
Northern New England (ME VT NH) and Southern New England (MA RI CT) have very very little in common.
More than they do with much of the rest of the country.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE has counties, Southern NE does not.
Untrue. Connecticut and Rhode Island no longer have any county governments, but counties still exist as geographic designations. In Massachusetts it's a bit ore complicated. Nine counties have abolished their governments, while another six merely have inactive governments.
County government does exist in Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont, but compared to the rest of the country it is rather weak. In Vermont counties are only responsible for law enforcement, and have elected officials but no independent taxing authority. In New Hampshire, counties only deal with sheriff services, prisons, and some publicly-run nursing homes. Maine probably has the strongest county government system, dealing with sheriffs, jails, deeds, courts, and public health, but compared to even county government in the Mid-Atlantic/Midwest, it's still a very restricted level of functionality, with more responsibility at the state or town level.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE has unincorporated areas, Southern NE does not
True, but the amount of unincorporated land in Vermont and New Hampshire is very limited. Less than 100 live in the unincorporated portions of Vermont, for example.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE is 95% white. Southern NE is 70% White.
No Southern NE state has more than 57% of births to white mothers, all of these states have multiple majority-minority cities.
The difference is because there are no major cities in Northern New England. White birth rates are probably pretty similar (read low) throughout New England.
Rural portions of Western Mass, NE Connecticut, S Rhode Island, etc are all still pretty damn white.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE has 1/2 small urbanized areas (Manchester/Nashua)
90% of Southern NE is an urbanized area.
IMHO urbanized area is a crappy measure of urbanity, because it includes many sparse wooded suburbs.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE is closer to Quebec and Nova Scotia culturally.
Southern NE is closer to NY/NJ culturally.
No, this is factually wrong. There was 19th Century French-Canadian migration into Northern New England, but there was also into Rhode Island and to a lesser extent Massachusetts. Outside of Southwestern Connecticut, there really isn't much NYC influence in Southern New England.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE has 3 million people in 2.5X the land of Southern NE.
Southern NE has over 11 million people.
Well yeah, not having cities does that.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE is uniformly frigid and has permafrost in it coldest areas.
Southern NE has a much more temperate climate especially along the coast and in Southern CT.
There is no permafrost even south of the St. Lawrence river, let alone in northern New England.
Regardless, the climate slowly gets warm the further south you go. Or coastal. Portland is milder in the winter than Western Massachusetts, despite being further north.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Northern NE is more equitable
Southern NE has some of the biggest inequalities along class and race in the US.
Not having poor minority residents/immigrants is the main reason for this.
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Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Why do we say New England when they are really two separate regions for all things cultural.
The split between the two probably really become noticeable in the 1970s so why do we continue the charade. Am I missing something? Certain things and organizations recognize Southern New England and Northern New England but it isn't widespread enough. It is just pointless to talk about NE when MACTRI are so similar and NHVTME are so similar but they are so so different from each other. Is it because in the older white collective conscious of America the two are seen as the same? Or is it because generally, Americans outside of NE don't know how different they are?
The bottom line NH/VT/ME are different from CT/RI/MA as a whole. But the less urbanized portions of all of these states share more in common by far with northern New England than not. And hell, the tax-flight suburban sprawl in New Hampshire near the border with Massachusetts isn't any different from those kinds of suburbs in MA, CT, or RI.
The only real difference is Northern New England lacks big cities and significant nonwhite populations. That's it.
Northern NE has 1/2 small urbanized areas (Manchester/Nashua)
Concord, Lewiston, Burlington, Portland, and Bangor don’t make the cut?
They may not be New Havens or Springfields, but they’re at least on the same playing field as Torrington, Pittsfield, Danbury, Middletown, Norwich, New London, New Bedford, and Fall River.
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Northern NE is closer to Quebec and Nova Scotia culturally.
Southern NE is closer to NY/NJ culturally.
No. Way. My great-grandfather moved to the US from Nova Scotia, and we have some very very distant relatives in PEI. Absolutely no connections to NY or NJ in my family at least. I grew up in MA.
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Why do we say New England when they are really two separate regions for all things cultural.
The split between the two probably really become noticeable in the 1970s so why do we continue the charade. Am I missing something? Certain things and organizations recognize Southern New England and Northern New England but it isn't widespread enough. It is just pointless to talk about NE when MACTRI are so similar and NHVTME are so similar but they are so so different from each other. Is it because in the older white collective conscious of America the two are seen as the same? Or is it because generally, Americans outside of NE don't know how different they are?
If I didn’t quote it, then I agree with it: northern NE is definitely whiter, emptier, and slightly colder than the south. Still I feel like there’s enough in common between north and south to justify it being one region.
I’m curious: do you feel the same about Downstate vs Upstate NY? The differences are just as drastic as between Southern and Northern New England.
Edit: saw you’re response to btown on the subject, but I kind of disagree. Plattsburgh isn’t very diverse at all, and all of NY north of I-90 is very sparsely populated.
Last edited by Boston Shudra; 10-18-2018 at 01:12 PM..
Dunkin Donuts is just as prevelent in NH and ME as it is in Massachusetts.
Coffee Milk is very much a RI thing and I have never seen anyone ever put vinegar in fries. And there absolutely is Italian Ice in Northern New England.
Lobster, Chowder, Woopie Pies, Boston Creme Pie, Turkey Terrifics, Fuffernutters, etc are all consistent across New England.
The fact there is way more interchange in travel between MA/RI and Northern New England than there is to NY/NJ shows a cultural affinity. People know what Bar Harbor, Wells, Hampton, Conway, Stowe, Burlington, Laconia is people don’t know where any town nor named NYC, Buffalo, or Lack Placid is in the state of NY.
I meant to type Hockey as the main sport at most universities. From Yale to UMaine this is true.
Heritage absolutely matters that’s why Rural New England is the only rural area in America that reliably voted Democratic.
Another example is Candlepin bowling exists everywhere in New England and nowhere outside of it.
Also of all States that Border Massachusetts NY has by far the least interchange (There are more commuters between Maine and MA than MA and NY)
Yea I think this is only true for a certain older or wealthier and whiter NE demographic. I don’t know any people going to those states. Ik canobie Lake Park and Manchester Nashua that’s it. I know lots of places in NY and NJ and am there frequently. The urban population of NE moves southward. Going North is always a waste of time/money because there is no reason to be up there.
I can only concede that rural Southern and Notthern NE are the same l, you can toss southern NH into Southern NE. But the day to day lived experience I think is pretty different. Seeing as most people live in the urban areas and the density is a major part of life for most in Southern NE.
But then it does prove the OP's point to a degree. White collar educated people in urban/suburban southern New England are trying to connect themselves to a quaint small town lifestyle found today mostly in rural upper New England, when they really have more in common these days with cities and suburbs in the Mid-Atlantic and perhaps other parts of the country.
Basically. I just don’t think it’s an actual real lifestyle similarity. Just wanting to identify with a bygone era or mode of life. If people really wanted the quaint New England life of old they would move to NH VT ME but they don’t... as evidenced by the population. The actual life differences between NY/NJ don’t seem as big as Northern NE. Northern New York is obviously different than down state but it’s an actual state...not a ‘region’
You’ve stated one of my thoughts but it seems by posters here that there’s enough to validate the moniker. I just think for practical purposes it’s silly to say New England is someone asking about living in the area. But looks like I’m on an island there...but I would bet my bottom dollar if you asked minority residents or even transplants to southern NE they would tell you of more travels and similarities to NY/NJ than to VT/ME
Yea I think this is only true for a certain older or wealthier and whiter NE demographic. I don’t know any people going to those states. Ik canobie Lake Park and Manchester Nashua that’s it. I know lots of places in NY and NJ and am there frequently. The urban population of NE moves southward. Going North is always a waste of time/money because there is no reason to be up there.
Idk what the hell you're talking about literally everyone I know goes North far more than they go South (even including the Cape as South) Clearly tons of people do it there is like a 12 mile Backup Sunday Afternoond on 95 in NH during the Summer. Same on 93. People go Skiing, to the lakes/Miuntins/Ocean very frequently.
84/90 generally has a to Boston flow that breaks up around 495/290 which indicates it’s mostly NYers/NJians going North.
The “white” Demographic is still the vast majority in Sputhern New England it’s not like their habits are some minute fraction.
Western MA is more similar to Northern NE or upstate NY. The NE corner of CT is very different from the SW corner. I think in general thou New England still does have a lot of cultural ties. One of those being most of us hate driving thru NY so most interstate travel form NE states is to other NE states.
Out of curiosity, op, do you think other regions are uniform? Like, do you think the South or the Midwest is homogeneous and cohesive throughout?
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