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Then it was a "mistake" for the rebs to fire on Ft. Sumter and start the war (which would lead to their eventual demise), even though they "won" that "engagement"?
I think there is too much migration from the North to the South and vice-versa and not enough differences between the regions for this to happen.
True and I do believe many Southerners need to get over it. They need the US and the US needs the South. That said, from looking at the results of the poll thus far, the states above 50% of the votes does not surprise me one bit. The states below 50% also does not surprise me.
Here is the tagline on the latter: The states in dark red are almost always included in modern day definitions of the South, while those in medium red are usually included. Maryland and Missouri are occasionally considered Southern, while Delaware is only rarely considered part of the South. Oklahoma is sometimes considered Southern because the area of Oklahoma, then known as Indian Territory, was allied with the Confederacy. West Virginia is considered Southern by many, because it was once part of Virginia.
Since I was one who helped create both maps...but the latter one in particular...then exactly what part of that Texas is usually, but not always, considered part of the South do you think escapes me? What you are REALLY trying to do, is get my goat a bit. Do you ACTUALLY think it flies over my head. Oh man..anyway. sorry, won't work. You are not even very good at doing THAT! LOL
The whole point I think is people need to let go of this notion that the South "will rise again". Yeah right. I don't think they realize what the are advocating by saying that. After I left the south I realized what the real world was like. It really pisses me off the way some ignorant southern people act still to this day. They just need to let it go. TexasReb is the perfect example of that. The stars and bars shouldn't even be displayed anywhere! It serves as an example of what not to do.
And this serves as a perfect example of ignorance and bigotry in its own right as concerns the Confederate Battle Flag. To say nothing of history. And as an aside here, I bet the cotton crop you don't know that the Battle Flag is NOT the Stars and Bars.
Be that as it may though, I am still LMAO over the original post which was:
TexasReb I am glad to see that killing of a fellow American was funny.
Harumph Harump! Kinda reminds me of a true story several years ago when some college kids were hosting a "50's Night" as a fund-raiser for their fraternity or sorority or whatever. Anyway, it would be full of good ol' do-*** music and original rock 'n roll and everybody dress up in pony tails and such and have a good time.
Nope. A college professor got wind of it and righteously declared that such an era was NOTHING to celebrate. It was a day of Jim Crow laws and McCarthy. How DARE people have a good time when there are too many scabs not yet picked! Lets all just sit around and feel miserable...
Ahhh, heck, TCP...you remind me a lot of that with your posturing and breast beating over that YOU...by golly...dont see anything FUNNY about this stuff. (I am curious if you practice this parody of a humorless, self-righteous, self-important, stuffed-shirt, in front of the mirror with one hand over the chest and a finger raised in indignation) Harumph...Harumph...
*nauseated* Give me a break. I'll take my ol' best enemy Steve any day as worthy of an argument over what you post.
With that said...I gotta get back to my honey-do list!
P.S. The South misses you terribly. Please come back home and let us learn from your wide and enlightened experiences elsewhere.
Then it was a "mistake" for the rebs to fire on Ft. Sumter and start the war (which would lead to their eventual demise), even though they "won" that "engagement"?
BUT...before leaving...gotta reply here.
Yeah, Steve, you are right. It WAS a mistake, in retrospect. The firing on Ft. Sumter that is. There was EVERY justification for it...but from a strategic point of view, the Confederacy (which at that time were only the 7 states from South Carolina to Texas) should have just let it be. The reason is, that prior to the firing on the fort, northern public opinion was just let the South go in peace. Lincoln knew this well, which was why he (and this is well documented) did his best to provoke the South Carolina garrison into firing...and then he could rally northern opinion into that U.S. honor had been insulted. It worked.
Alternate histories are always interesting and fun to speculate on. Looking back, Jefferson Davis should have ordered that, at all costs, do NOT fire on the fort.
NOW then...TRULY outta here for the evening. Everyone have a good 'un! And remember, if it cain't be fried then it ain't worth eatin!
There are so many great things about the South that I truly don't understand why people need to obsess over one of the darkest periods of our history as a nation. It's really important to learn and to understand, but people get so worked up over it that it's silly, IMO.
No one that is now alive participated in it. All the posturing that people engage in regarding the conflict is incredibly silly. Not to point fingers, but the worst is when people say "I'm a southerner first". What? Try being an American first; or better yet, an American period.
I hate the idea that the South is "occupied territory". Please people stop saying that. Was Bill Clinton a traitor or a spy? How about Jimmy Carter (his father was a soldier in the Confederate Army, remember?)? How about all those representatives in various offices now? I really want to know. Someone explain it to me, please.
It's extra mind-boggling that people romanticize it.
One of the most annoying things I hear when the Civil War is brought up is this: "General Lee didn't even want to fight." Someone said it in this thread somewhere, I think.
Do people really think that General Lee was the only person who felt this way? Or that he was the exception rather than the rule? This is like fingernails on a chalkboard.
I think it's all fine and good to talk about this stuff and I love historical discourse, but there is so much spin from all directions on this (from both north and south) that most of the time when this topic is brought up, history is the only thing we aren't talking about. Seriously, it's like people learn radically different versions of the story depending on where they live. Which is the case it would seem.
And discussing alternate possible futures based on changes in history is also fine and can be fun, but its the way so many people do it when it comes to this particular event that gets depressing. It's weird, sad and pretty awful when people talk about how great it would be if the South won, rather than just what it would be like. This is especially annoying when they talk about it being some way other that it would logically be based upon it's principles, constitution and its institutions. People seem to paint an awfully inaccurate depiction in, IMO.
So, what would happen to the US military and all other US Government property in the South? You know you guys would not be able to keep your nukes, now, don't you?
The reason is, that prior to the firing on the fort, northern public opinion was just let the South go in peace. Lincoln knew this well, which was why he (and this is well documented) did his best to provoke the South Carolina garrison into firing...and then he could rally northern opinion into that U.S. honor had been insulted. It worked.
Well, the same could be said for Roosevelt allowing the attack on Pearl Harbor to happen as a way to get the American public to agree to go to war (Britain was begging the US to join on their side, but the US public wanted to overwhelmingly remain isolationists. America had no beef with Germany anyways, and American companies were making a pretty penny supplying the German war machine.
Texas you sure had a lot to say for someone not getting under your skin. I don't really care what your map says,as a Louisiana boy, you are not considered at least by me as a southerner, but a western state. The fact that you think what the South did was justified just proves my point. How would you feel if you were an African American and had to put up with someone flying that flag in your face everyday? Especially if it is part of a state flag. Your point about the college party made no sense by the way. It has nothing with this conversation. A college party with a 50's theme doesn't represent McCarthyism or Jim Crow. But the Confederate flag does represent slavery, and oppression to most people. You can talk all the details that you want about every battle but in the end the South was wrong for seceding.
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