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Old 12-31-2018, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
10,793 posts, read 9,432,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
I guess large scale sprawl is a Sunbelt characteristic. Nashville, Charlotte, Houston and especially Dallas-Fort Worth are very sprawled out. Ironically Las Vegas and Phoenix are less sprawled and more dense because of the water limitations and because Vegas is hemmed in by federal lands to the north (where the military bases including Nellis and Area 51 are), Lake Mead to the east and mountains to the west.

New Orleans and its inner suburbs are very dense by Southern standards but the Northshore is very sprawled out. The Northshore is the only place where New Orleans has room to sprawl anyway given Lake Pontchartrain, the bayous, and the Mississippi and the levee system. In fact the actual city of NO would be much smaller than it is now if not for the levees and reclamation of below sea level land. Even many of the inner suburbs like Metairie and Kenner would be underwater if not for the pumping system.
New Orleans is denser than the numbers bear out because it has a large marshland/swamp in its city limits (Bayou Savage National Refuge). If you would subtract that area out of the density calculations it would be as dense as many Northeastern cities.
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Old 01-01-2019, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,592 posts, read 17,582,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy_317 View Post
Indy is actually growing pretty good. Maybe not as fast as those other cities, I don't know. My wife and I built a house in a northern suburb. Land is running $25K/acre for a custom home site (no housing addition) to $20K/acre if you want five acres. If we were in the "must have" suburban county of Hamilton, these figures would be 2-3x as much (the draw is the schools for the most part). Since we've been here, we've seen about 200-300 homes I'd say being built in newer additions in Hamilton County, with costs ranging from $250Kish to $350Kish and up.

I've lived in this area my entire life. The 80s-today were very strong decades for suburban growth. The last ten years our downtown urban core area has seen amazing growth. I never thought I'd see the day where one bedroom apartments (newer, all the furnishings) would go for $1,200/month for Indianapolis. Someone else in another forum said downtown Columbus is at $2,000, which is ridiculous.

Once the whole $15/hour thing works itself through the economy, I imagine some of the mid to heavy industry jobs here that max out in the high teens to low $20/hour could possibly pay all go to $20-$25/hour. Still far from our heyday of UAW auto pay from back in the day, but definitely would increase household incomes for many lower-middle to middle class folks blue-collar households.
Indy is still about the cheapest city of its size in the country. You can still find $600 1BRs. That's very in this day and age.
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:11 PM
 
29,944 posts, read 27,396,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cBach View Post
New Orleans is denser than the numbers bear out because it has a large marshland/swamp in its city limits (Bayou Savage National Refuge). If you would subtract that area out of the density calculations it would be as dense as many Northeastern cities.
This is true. Of nearly 500 urbanized areas in the U.S., New Orleans ranks 31st at 3,578.9 sq mi--similar to lots of Western UAs and third highest in the U.S. South after Miami and Laredo TX (which it is essentially tied with). This is according to 2010 stats so its density is probably higher now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas
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Old 01-01-2019, 07:05 PM
 
1,508 posts, read 525,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
I guess large scale sprawl is a Sunbelt characteristic. Nashville, Charlotte, Houston and especially Dallas-Fort Worth are very sprawled out. Ironically Las Vegas and Phoenix are less sprawled and more dense because of the water limitations and because Vegas is hemmed in by federal lands to the north (where the military bases including Nellis and Area 51 are), Lake Mead to the east and mountains to the west.

New Orleans and its inner suburbs are very dense by Southern standards but the Northshore is very sprawled out. The Northshore is the only place where New Orleans has room to sprawl anyway given Lake Pontchartrain, the bayous, and the Mississippi and the levee system. In fact the actual city of NO would be much smaller than it is now if not for the levees and reclamation of below sea level land. Even many of the inner suburbs like Metairie and Kenner would be underwater if not for the pumping system.
I can certainly attest to the sprawl and lack of zoning in Slidell (was there for two months). Very nice town, though. Seemed like Mandeville was quite well planned, though.
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Old 01-01-2019, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,461 posts, read 7,526,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
Well I think you’re splitting hairs here. No one else is trying to make a Pittsburgh/Baltimore comparison. Pittsburgh has definitely made a strong economic transition, but it still hasn’t been enough to stave off decline. For the purpose of this discussion I think it’s still a rustbelt city.
I think the issue, though, is that there's still an oudated notion of what comprises "decline." Pittsburgh is a very unique example of a city/metro that actually does have a growing economy in terms of jobs and GDP, but is still experiencing marginal population decline.

The fact of the matter is that the term "Rust Belt" at its core refers to a large post-industrial swath of the US that had experienced a decimation to an overwhemingly manufacturing/industrial-based economy. But given that Pittsburgh today not only has a lower percentage of manufacturing jobs than the US at large, and does have a growing (if relatively slowly) economy overwhelmingly in service/knowledge industries, then it has arguably "shed" the very aspects that made it "Rust Belt" to begin with. Heck, I'd throw cities like Cleveland and Detroit in that boat too, for sure.

Post-industrial cities like Pittsburgh are still "right-sizing" themselves and working to reach an equilibrium in terms of population. And given that the decrease in population isn't occurring in the prime working age population, but instead at the end of the age scale, that's a crucial distinction.

I actually think that a least slight population growth will occur very soon in a number of cities in this swath (especially if cities like Pittsburgh market themselves as more of an immigrant hub). But so long as the metro is actually becoming wealthier/more prosperous, even with population decline and remaining "scars" from deindustrialization (underutilized land and blight in some areas), "Rust Belt" is a complete misnomer.
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Old 01-01-2019, 09:19 PM
 
3,961 posts, read 3,495,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I think the issue, though, is that there's still an oudated notion of what comprises "decline." Pittsburgh is a very unique example of a city/metro that actually does have a growing economy in terms of jobs and GDP, but is still experiencing marginal population decline.
I get what you're saying. I understand the well documented transition of Pittsburgh. Though I still do not think Pittsburgh is an "Island in the Rust Belt" yet. It's documented that a metro area can lose population and still grow its economy. Pittsburgh is not that unique in the distinction. Cleveland is also losing population in its metro, but has a growing economy. Detroit has a growing economy, and is the only of the three actually gaining population in it's metro area. Why can't Pittsburgh attract enough new residents with all of the good happening there to over come the apparent attrition to aging? It is clearly further along in its transition compared to Detroit, by all logic its metro should be able to at least grow tepidly.

Most of those here arguing that Pittsburgh should get a pass, would not argue that Detroit and Cleveland aren't still Rust Belt cities. For the purpose of this distinction the term Rust Belt refers to a legacy, it does not necessarily mean the cities are doomed or aren't improving. While PGH has made a remarkable transition, and has done well to re-image itself. There is not enough data to suggest that it should be distinct from its traditional Rust Belt peers. To the contrary the numbers look to suggest it is still in line with them.
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Old 01-01-2019, 09:38 PM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,053,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
Minneapolis most certainly was rust belt based on the number of manufacturing jobs it lost as well as core city decline in the 70s and 80s. The term rust belt was coined from a 1980s book that discussed the post industrial economic transition from manufacturing to a knowledge base. Based on the clinical definition almost every legacy city, including New York was affected by it. We here on city-data tend to only apply the definition as midwestern crap holes that havenít experienced enough reinvestment to grow again. I think thatís short sighted.

I also disagree that Pittsburgh is no longer rust belt. I think a criteria for exiting that status should at least include population growth in the core and metro.
You are forgetting that an important criteria of Rust Belt is that the city's economy was formerly predominately manufacturing. It is true Minneapolis had manufacturing jobs prior to the 1980s (and still does!), but it's economy was too diversified to have been Rust Belt. Minneapolis has been and still is an important banking, insurance agri-business, transportation and food production center, in addition to its manufacturing, which was but a small part of its overall economy. Same goes for Des Moines. Yes, there was a bit of manufacturing there too, but insurance was the largest part of its economy.
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Old 01-01-2019, 09:46 PM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,053,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
I think Duluth was pretty textbook Rust Belt.
What was manufactured in Duluth? (It was and is primarily a shipping center--mostly ore and grain).
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:00 PM
 
3,961 posts, read 3,495,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
You are forgetting that an important criteria of Rust Belt is that the city's economy was formerly predominately manufacturing. It is true Minneapolis had manufacturing jobs prior to the 1980s (and still does!), but it's economy was too diversified to have been Rust Belt. Minneapolis has been and still is an important banking, insurance agri-business, transportation and food production center, in addition to its manufacturing, which was but a small part of its overall economy. Same goes for Des Moines. Yes, there was a bit of manufacturing there too, but insurance was the largest part of its economy.
MSP is definitely the bolded for the last 40 years, but was not always as diversified. It rose to prominence the way almost every city did during the 19th century. A lot of the major players in MSP that helped stop the population loss in the core city, really didn't rise to full prominence until the 1980's. A snap shot of the 1960's Minneapolitan economy was not the corporate mecca it is now.
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:14 PM
 
3,961 posts, read 3,495,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
What was manufactured in Duluth? (It was and is primarily a shipping center--mostly ore and grain).
Duluth has a heavily industrial past that has not replaced many of the jobs lost when it's main industry shifted. Are you asserting that only the loss of manufacturing specific jobs can qualify a city as Rust Belt? I don't see how Duluth wouldn't be part of that grouping of cities.


Everyone again, just because a city is mentioned as RustBelt city it does NOT mean the city is being insulted. Rust Belt is a legacy term, you don't have to react to it as if someone has levied a racial or enthic slur against a home favorite. Two things can be true at once. A city can have been considered a Rust Belt city, and can have a favorable image in the modern day.

Quote:
Rust Belt refers to the deindustrialization, or economic decline, population loss, and urban decay due to the shrinking of its once-powerful industrial sector.
The above quote was defined during the mid 1980s. At the time of its introduction into the American vocabulary almost every city had been affected by this type of decline. Clinically in 2019 its purest form would really only apply to mainly smaller cities separated from major cities. Again on city data we have somehow warped this term to mainly mean Midwestern/Great Lakes crap holes that haven't had enough reinvestment to grow population. The application of this term, even if in historical context should not cause such an image crisis.
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