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Old 01-18-2019, 09:25 AM
 
6,955 posts, read 14,084,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylord_Focker View Post
Yeah to me Nova is not southern.
I don't see how anyone can think it is TBH.

 
Old 01-18-2019, 10:17 AM
 
899 posts, read 764,348 times
Reputation: 1195
NoVa isnít the reason why Democrats are winning Virginia. The margins in Northern Virginia havenít changed over the last two decades. What has changed is how suburban Richmond and Tidewater are voting now. All cities in VA (Richmond, Norfolk, Suffolk, Newport News, Hampton, Roanoke, Charlottesville, Harrionburg, Fredericksburg, Danville) have been voting Democratic for 50 years. In the last 20 years Henrico and Chesterfield counties have flipped. Virginia Beach went for Clinton (and Kaine and Northam), James City County, Chesapeake are pretty evenly spilt or going Democratic.

NoVa racks up huge margins for Democrats. But those margins were eroded by overwhelming Republican support in the suburban areas of Norfolk and Richmond until recently. Richmond and Tidewater have added three more Democratic US House members over the last 4 years. I guess RoVa is Northern now too
 
Old 01-18-2019, 10:29 AM
 
6,955 posts, read 14,084,889 times
Reputation: 4533
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencer114 View Post
NoVa isnít the reason why Democrats are winning Virginia. The margins in Northern Virginia havenít changed over the last two decades. What has changed is how suburban Richmond and Tidewater are voting now. All cities in VA (Richmond, Norfolk, Suffolk, Newport News, Hampton, Roanoke, Charlottesville, Harrionburg, Fredericksburg, Danville) have been voting Democratic for 50 years. In the last 20 years Henrico and Chesterfield counties have flipped. Virginia Beach went for Clinton (and Kaine and Northam), James City County, Chesapeake are pretty evenly spilt or going Democratic.

NoVa racks up huge margins for Democrats. But those margins were eroded by overwhelming Republican support in the suburban areas of Norfolk and Richmond until recently. Richmond and Tidewater have added three more Democratic US House members over the last 4 years. I guess RoVa is Northern now too
Voting preference alone doesn't make somewhere Southern or Northern. It's the culture and vibe you get while being there. I.e. Lexington KY votes blue in every election and has a gay mayor. However, it's still very Southern. But there is a clear difference in vibes, world outlooks, interests, culture, etc. between Lexington KY and most of the DMV, including NoVa and DC. That said, I've never been to other parts of VA, but if I had to guess, I'd say most are somewhere between Lexington and NoVa. With NoVa being so blue and the state voting so blue thanks to it and the other regions you mentioned, it is definitely transitioning more to "northern." However, the state is only going that way because the population centers are going that way. The more rural areas are still "southern." OTOH, going to rural Upstate NY or Central PA does not make you feel like you're in the South; they vote Republican, but they're not Southern.
 
Old 01-18-2019, 10:39 AM
 
2,501 posts, read 2,262,328 times
Reputation: 1820
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
Voting preference alone doesn't make somewhere Southern or Northern. It's the culture and vibe you get while being there. I.e. Lexington KY votes blue in every election and has a gay mayor. However, it's still very Southern. But there is a clear difference in vibes, world outlooks, interests, culture, etc. between Lexington KY and most of the DMV, including NoVa and DC. That said, I've never been to other parts of VA, but if I had to guess, I'd say most are somewhere between Lexington and NoVa. With NoVa being so blue and the state voting so blue thanks to it and the other regions you mentioned, it is definitely transitioning more to "northern." However, the state is only going that way because the population centers are going that way. The more rural areas are still "southern." OTOH, going to rural Upstate NY or Central PA does not make you feel like you're in the South; they vote Republican, but they're not Southern.
Plus the DMV's connections to the BosWash corridor from all aspects such as business, culture, logistics i.e. DC/NYC being the top pairing destinations on Amtrak in both ridership and revenue and not to forget all of the people who bus, drive or fly, makes it heavily influenced by it's Northern Peers. The DMV's ties to the North are undeniable and has no counterpart Southward. It's so odd that people don't see the obvious connection and the clear disconnect as you go south. It's neither good or bad.. it just is/isnt.

In the real world, people don't consider either MD or DC as Southern representatives and nobody ever recommends someone go visit Maryland for a taste of the South lol....

Last edited by Ebck120; 01-18-2019 at 11:27 AM..
 
Old 01-18-2019, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,838 posts, read 6,178,314 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebck120 View Post
Plus the DMV's connections to the BosWash corridor from all aspects such as business, culture, logistics i.e. DC/NYC being the top pairing destinations on Amtrak in both ridership and revenue and not to forget all of the people who bus, drive or fly, makes it heavily influenced by it's Northern Peers. The's DMV's ties to the North are undeniable and has no counterpart Southward. It's so odd that people don't see the obvious connection and the clear disconnect as you go south. It's neither good or bad.. it just is/isnt.

In the real world, people don't consider either MD or DC as Southern representatives and nobody ever recommends someone go visit Maryland for a taste of the South lol....
However you have to square that with the fact that there still are, or have been vestiges to the confederacy and the south in NOVA and Maryland. The confederate monuments in Baltimore were only removed in the last year or so. There are (or have been) roads, schools and monuments in NOVA dedicated to confederate personage. There is actually a confederate cemetery in Arlington Nat'l cemetery complete with statue for the confederate dead.

So it would almost appear that the "southern" aspects have both faded and been overwhelmed by other influences over time. The fact that the monuments are going down, the roads and school names are being changed are certainly evidence of this.
 
Old 01-18-2019, 11:05 AM
 
899 posts, read 764,348 times
Reputation: 1195
Robert E Lee elementary in Richmond is now Barack Obama elementary... Richmond divested of it’s monuments in the 90’s (they are still standing but no tax payer money goes to maintain them and hasn’t for 25 years).

All of Virgins’s metros are more aligned with the North economically (a function of huge markets and close proximity). The least populated part of Virginia is along the southern border (Tidewater notwithstanding, but it’s rasin d’etre is the Chesapeake Bay and it’s trade routes north). There’s a disticitive break in commerce between Richmond and Raleigh (nighttime satellite views show this clearly).
 
Old 01-18-2019, 12:06 PM
 
6,955 posts, read 14,084,889 times
Reputation: 4533
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
However you have to square that with the fact that there still are, or have been vestiges to the confederacy and the south in NOVA and Maryland. The confederate monuments in Baltimore were only removed in the last year or so. There are (or have been) roads, schools and monuments in NOVA dedicated to confederate personage. There is actually a confederate cemetery in Arlington Nat'l cemetery complete with statue for the confederate dead.

So it would almost appear that the "southern" aspects have both faded and been overwhelmed by other influences over time. The fact that the monuments are going down, the roads and school names are being changed are certainly evidence of this.
And there are white people born and raised in the North with no connection to the South whatsoever who fly Confederate Flags. Aligning yourself with the Confederacy is more associated with white supremacy than being "Southern." I have tons of southern friends who despise anyone with a Confederate Flag being shown in any way. They are born and raised in the South, love the South, act southern, are southern, etc. Confederacy =/= Southern in today's world; it simple stands for white supremacy regardless of geographic location.

A quick google search turned up this Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._and_memorials
The following places have something or other dedicated to the Confederacy. I didn't list everything obviously:

CA
-San Diego and Santa Ana have monuments
-LA and Bakersfield have roads
-Anaheim has a high school mascot

CO
-Denver has a cemetery

HI
-Plaque dedicated to both Confederate and Union soldiers

ID
-4 inhabited places named after the Confederacy

IL
-Springfield and Chicago have cemeteries

IN
-Evansville has a monument
-Indy has 2

NJ
-Pennsivlle Township has a monument

NM
-Santa Fe has a memorial

NY
-2 streets in Brooklyn

OH
-Columbus has a memorial
-A high school in Cleveland's mascot

PA
-Gettysburg has "Confederate Avenue"

UT
-Has a place named Dixie in Washington County

WA
-Bellingham has a historic house named after a Confederate officer
-Clark County has a location where Confederate flags are flown
-Seattle has a monument

WI
-There's a monument of Jefferson Davis

WY
-There's a river in Yellowstone named after a secessionist

Yes, VA and MD have lots of stuff commemorating a group of racist traitors. But just because they have participation trophies dedicated to the losers doesn't mean they are STILL aligned with the Confederacy. Many monuments are in places that are decidedly NOT southern.

Basically I don't think it's fair to judge a place's "southern-ness" based on the amount of participation trophies to the Confederacy. Some people in the North still haven't realized it's been 150 years and they need to get over it, they lost. The people in NoVa are not white supremacist losers, nor are they culturally southern. And it's impossible to say DC is southern if NoVa is not.
 
Old 01-18-2019, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Clemson, SC by way of Tyler,TX
4,839 posts, read 2,973,256 times
Reputation: 3384
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
And there are white people born and raised in the North with no connection to the South whatsoever who fly Confederate Flags. Aligning yourself with the Confederacy is more associated with white supremacy than being "Southern." I have tons of southern friends who despise anyone with a Confederate Flag being shown in any way. They are born and raised in the South, love the South, act southern, are southern, etc. Confederacy =/= Southern in today's world; it simple stands for white supremacy regardless of geographic location.

A quick google search turned up this Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._and_memorials
The following places have something or other dedicated to the Confederacy. I didn't list everything obviously:

CA
-San Diego and Santa Ana have monuments
-LA and Bakersfield have roads
-Anaheim has a high school mascot

CO
-Denver has a cemetery

HI
-Plaque dedicated to both Confederate and Union soldiers

ID
-4 inhabited places named after the Confederacy

IL
-Springfield and Chicago have cemeteries

IN
-Evansville has a monument
-Indy has 2

NJ
-Pennsivlle Township has a monument

NM
-Santa Fe has a memorial

NY
-2 streets in Brooklyn

OH
-Columbus has a memorial
-A high school in Cleveland's mascot

PA
-Gettysburg has "Confederate Avenue"

UT
-Has a place named Dixie in Washington County

WA
-Bellingham has a historic house named after a Confederate officer
-Clark County has a location where Confederate flags are flown
-Seattle has a monument

WI
-There's a monument of Jefferson Davis

WY
-There's a river in Yellowstone named after a secessionist

Yes, VA and MD have lots of stuff commemorating a group of racist traitors. But just because they have participation trophies dedicated to the losers doesn't mean they are STILL aligned with the Confederacy. Many monuments are in places that are decidedly NOT southern.

Basically I don't think it's fair to judge a place's "southern-ness" based on the amount of participation trophies to the Confederacy. Some people in the North still haven't realized it's been 150 years and they need to get over it, they lost. The people in NoVa are not white supremacist losers, nor are they culturally southern. And it's impossible to say DC is southern if NoVa is not.

to me Virginia is pretty southern once you leave Nova.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebck120 View Post
Plus the DMV's connections to the BosWash corridor from all aspects such as business, culture, logistics i.e. DC/NYC being the top pairing destinations on Amtrak in both ridership and revenue and not to forget all of the people who bus, drive or fly, makes it heavily influenced by it's Northern Peers. The DMV's ties to the North are undeniable and has no counterpart Southward. It's so odd that people don't see the obvious connection and the clear disconnect as you go south. It's neither good or bad.. it just is/isnt.

In the real world, people don't consider either MD or DC as Southern representatives and nobody ever recommends someone go visit Maryland for a taste of the South lol....
Not to digress, but I've never understood how that flag didn't represent racism, but whatever. Regarding statues, have you been to Germany or Iraq? do they have statues of Hitler or Saddam?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
Voting preference alone doesn't make somewhere Southern or Northern. It's the culture and vibe you get while being there. I.e. Lexington KY votes blue in every election and has a gay mayor. However, it's still very Southern. But there is a clear difference in vibes, world outlooks, interests, culture, etc. between Lexington KY and most of the DMV, including NoVa and DC. That said, I've never been to other parts of VA, but if I had to guess, I'd say most are somewhere between Lexington and NoVa. With NoVa being so blue and the state voting so blue thanks to it and the other regions you mentioned, it is definitely transitioning more to "northern." However, the state is only going that way because the population centers are going that way. The more rural areas are still "southern." OTOH, going to rural Upstate NY or Central PA does not make you feel like you're in the South; they vote Republican, but they're not Southern.
+1
 
Old 01-18-2019, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,100 posts, read 4,729,281 times
Reputation: 5374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
And there are white people born and raised in the North with no connection to the South whatsoever who fly Confederate Flags. Aligning yourself with the Confederacy is more associated with white supremacy than being "Southern." I have tons of southern friends who despise anyone with a Confederate Flag being shown in any way. They are born and raised in the South, love the South, act southern, are southern, etc. Confederacy =/= Southern in today's world; it simple stands for white supremacy regardless of geographic location.

A quick google search turned up this Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._and_memorials
The following places have something or other dedicated to the Confederacy. I didn't list everything obviously:

CA
-San Diego and Santa Ana have monuments
-LA and Bakersfield have roads
-Anaheim has a high school mascot

CO
-Denver has a cemetery

HI
-Plaque dedicated to both Confederate and Union soldiers

ID
-4 inhabited places named after the Confederacy

IL
-Springfield and Chicago have cemeteries

IN
-Evansville has a monument
-Indy has 2

NJ
-Pennsivlle Township has a monument

NM
-Santa Fe has a memorial

NY
-2 streets in Brooklyn

OH
-Columbus has a memorial
-A high school in Cleveland's mascot

PA
-Gettysburg has "Confederate Avenue"

UT
-Has a place named Dixie in Washington County

WA
-Bellingham has a historic house named after a Confederate officer
-Clark County has a location where Confederate flags are flown
-Seattle has a monument

WI
-There's a monument of Jefferson Davis

WY
-There's a river in Yellowstone named after a secessionist

Yes, VA and MD have lots of stuff commemorating a group of racist traitors. But just because they have participation trophies dedicated to the losers doesn't mean they are STILL aligned with the Confederacy. Many monuments are in places that are decidedly NOT southern.

Basically I don't think it's fair to judge a place's "southern-ness" based on the amount of participation trophies to the Confederacy. Some people in the North still haven't realized it's been 150 years and they need to get over it, they lost. The people in NoVa are not white supremacist losers, nor are they culturally southern. And it's impossible to say DC is southern if NoVa is not.
Elmira, NY has a dedicated cemetery and statue to the rebs that died in the war prison there.
 
Old 01-18-2019, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,838 posts, read 6,178,314 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
And there are white people born and raised in the North with no connection to the South whatsoever who fly Confederate Flags. Aligning yourself with the Confederacy is more associated with white supremacy than being "Southern." I have tons of southern friends who despise anyone with a Confederate Flag being shown in any way. They are born and raised in the South, love the South, act southern, are southern, etc. Confederacy =/= Southern in today's world; it simple stands for white supremacy regardless of geographic location.

A quick google search turned up this Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._and_memorials
The following places have something or other dedicated to the Confederacy. I didn't list everything obviously:

CA
-San Diego and Santa Ana have monuments
-LA and Bakersfield have roads
-Anaheim has a high school mascot

CO
-Denver has a cemetery

HI
-Plaque dedicated to both Confederate and Union soldiers

ID
-4 inhabited places named after the Confederacy

IL
-Springfield and Chicago have cemeteries

IN
-Evansville has a monument
-Indy has 2

NJ
-Pennsivlle Township has a monument

NM
-Santa Fe has a memorial

NY
-2 streets in Brooklyn

OH
-Columbus has a memorial
-A high school in Cleveland's mascot

PA
-Gettysburg has "Confederate Avenue"

UT
-Has a place named Dixie in Washington County

WA
-Bellingham has a historic house named after a Confederate officer
-Clark County has a location where Confederate flags are flown
-Seattle has a monument

WI
-There's a monument of Jefferson Davis

WY
-There's a river in Yellowstone named after a secessionist

Yes, VA and MD have lots of stuff commemorating a group of racist traitors. But just because they have participation trophies dedicated to the losers doesn't mean they are STILL aligned with the Confederacy. Many monuments are in places that are decidedly NOT southern.

Basically I don't think it's fair to judge a place's "southern-ness" based on the amount of participation trophies to the Confederacy. Some people in the North still haven't realized it's been 150 years and they need to get over it, they lost. The people in NoVa are not white supremacist losers, nor are they culturally southern. And it's impossible to say DC is southern if NoVa is not.
Sure there are isolated monuments/roads etc to the confederacy in other places besides the south. Some of these are quite weak though. I assume Gettysburg has a "confederate avenue" because of the battle. Utah has Dixie county because SW Utah is warm and the Mormons could grow cotton there in the early days. Not really anything honoring the confederacy itself. The street in Bellingham, WA was named after George Pickett because he was in charge of building the fort there when the place was settled and they have preserved his house. Not necessarily honoring his confederate service. And on and on.

NOVA, Maryland and DC all had the monuments as well as slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation. You are arguing that DMV is not southern now. I am arguing that it once was and has changed.............thus all the controversy.
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