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Old 10-25-2019, 07:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cjseliga View Post
While I agree, it would be interesting if the Inland Empire did have it's "own" Big 4 team that played within that specific Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA MSA boundaries. I realize it will probably never happen though for various reasons.
Riverside County is just too close to LA which already 2 teams in 3 of the major 4 leagues. It is not an independent media market, and its growth is as a cheaper alternative for both employers, and residents looking to be near LA/Orange County. Riverside and San Bernadino are not cores for a 4.5 million person metro area, they are small nodes. Riverside has virtually no independent identity away from LA and is an anomaly due to rigid OMB statistical guidelines. Everyone who lives there already has strong ties to teams from the areas they originally come from, or existing California teams. This day and age league expansions and relocations are all about corporate suites, and sponsorships. Riverside would have the clout and support of a much smaller market if they tried.

Gone are the days where a local billionaire can bring a team to a city like Jacksonville(the good news is it's growing in both population and economy). Cities like Buffalo, and New Orleans have legacy teams from when they were considered much bigger markets. Even then Riverside doesn't have the local identity those regions do.

Last edited by mjlo; 10-25-2019 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 10-25-2019, 08:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mjlo View Post

Gone are the days where a local billionaire can bring a team to a city like Jacksonville(the good news is it's growing in both population and economy). Cities like Buffalo, and New Orleans have legacy teams from when they were considered much bigger markets. Even then Riverside doesn't have the local identity those regions do.
There have been fairly recent examples and it has been done not that long ago. Moving Seattle's NBA team was done by a local billionaire OKC businessman nearly a decade ago. The Oakland Raiders, while not owned by a local LV billionaire, are moving to Las Vegas soon (I consider Las Vegas in the same vein as Jacksonville due to media market size). In the NHL, this is more likely to happen with Winnipeg getting their team this way, this decade. Quebec could very well get a team this way also. I agree about Riverside though.

Last edited by bartonro; 10-25-2019 at 08:38 AM..
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Old 10-25-2019, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
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Originally Posted by bartonro View Post
There have been fairly recent examples and it has been done not that long ago. Moving Seattle's NBA team was done by a local billionaire OKC businessman nearly a decade ago. The Oakland Raiders, while not owned by a local LV billionaire, are moving to Las Vegas soon (I consider Las Vegas in the same vein as Jacksonville due to media market size). In the NHL, this is more likely to happen with Winnipeg getting their team this way, this decade. Quebec could very well get a team this way also. I agree about Riverside though.
It already happened
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Old 10-25-2019, 08:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Spade View Post
It already happened
I worded that poorly. I meant to use that as an example of why it could still happen for other mid tier cities.
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Old 10-25-2019, 10:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bartonro View Post
There have been fairly recent examples and it has been done not that long ago. Moving Seattle's NBA team was done by a local billionaire OKC businessman nearly a decade ago. The Oakland Raiders, while not owned by a local LV billionaire, are moving to Las Vegas soon (I consider Las Vegas in the same vein as Jacksonville due to media market size). In the NHL, this is more likely to happen with Winnipeg getting their team this way, this decade. Quebec could very well get a team this way also. I agree about Riverside though.
Vegas's MSA has 2.3 million people making it larger than several places with multiple tier 1 teams. Not to mention they are building an almost $2 billion facility to lure the Raiders away from Oakland. The Oklahoma city moved happened 11 years ago. I'm not saying it can't happen again, but in the current environment it's very unlikely. Any subsequent team relocation's in the past 10 years have been upgrades to larger, wealthier markets. Even while Oakland is technically going to a smaller market in Vegas, they won't be playing second fiddler to the 49er's, and they stand to make more revenue in their new facility, vs the dinosaur they've been in.

Also Canadian cities have more local pride in general. By default they tend to have much more passionate fan bases. Even then it will only work with hockey. Hence why Quebec City has a good shot at getting an NHL team, where a city like Grand Rapids that has a larger population base and media market will never be more than a tier 2/3 city.
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Old 10-25-2019, 10:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
Vegas's MSA has 2.3 million people making it larger than several places with multiple tier 1 teams. Not to mention they are building an almost $2 billion facility to lure the Raiders away from Oakland. The Oklahoma city moved happened 11 years ago. I'm not saying it can't happen again, but in the current environment it's very unlikely. Any subsequent team relocation's in the past 10 years have been upgrades to larger, wealthier markets. Even while Oakland is technically going to a smaller market in Vegas, they won't be playing second fiddler to the 49er's, and they stand to make more revenue in their new facility, vs the dinosaur they've been in.

Also Canadian cities have more local pride in general. By default they tend to have much more passionate fan bases. Even then it will only work with hockey. Hence why Quebec City has a good shot at getting an NHL team, where a city like Grand Rapids that has a larger population base and media market will never be more than a tier 2/3 city.
I agree with most of this but teams are more likely to looks at media markets than msa's due to tv deal negotiations. Thus Jacksonville and Las Vegas are similar.. in this case it doesn't matter because the NFL doesn't have local tv deals. But Vegas is/was brought up in all sports for relocation or expansion.

The current environment is that economic times are good. Once this changes such as a recession, teams whose arena/stadium leases expire will look to put pressure on their respective cities to renovate or build a new stadium all together. This will put pressure on cities to fork over money for stadiums that they might not have. Since the last national recession was quite a while ago, the finances of teams have been better, thus why the OKC Thunder move seems ancient.

Another example would be the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Las Vegas talk.

Hypothetically if a city has a newer arena/stadium built, I would think teams could easily use that as leverage to relocate a team there like in this case KC, Richmond or Louisville.
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Old 10-25-2019, 11:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bartonro View Post
I agree with most of this but teams are more likely to looks at media markets than msa's due to tv deal negotiations. Thus Jacksonville and Las Vegas are similar.. in this case it doesn't matter because the NFL doesn't have local tv deals. But Vegas is/was brought up in all sports for relocation or expansion.

Hypothetically if a city has a newer arena/stadium built, I would think teams could easily use that as leverage to relocate a team there like in this case KC, Richmond or Louisville.
I suppose it would depend on the league. Kansas City is the number 32 TV market, pretty big separation from Louisville 49, and Richmond 56.

I can see the case maybe being made for the NBA to have expansions/relo's to cities and states like Kentucky with basketball heavy cultures. Though it would seem counter intuitive to me if there were such a thing in the works, to skip over a media market like Seattle, where corporate portfolio's, population, and local wealth are proliferating.

For NFL it seems highly unlikely to me for them to have expansions or relocation's to anything other than bigger/better markets.
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Old 10-25-2019, 11:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
I can see the case maybe being made for the NBA to have expansions/relo's to cities and states like Kentucky with basketball heavy cultures. Though it would seem counter intuitive to me if there were such a thing in the works, to skip over a media market like Seattle, where corporate portfolio's, population, and local wealth are proliferating.

For NFL it seems highly unlikely to me for them to have expansions or relocation's to anything other than bigger/better markets.
No doubt Seattle is high on the list for NBA relocation. If the NBA were to expand though, they would probably expand by 2 teams rather than 1 for scheduling purposes (most league expansions have come in pairs or by a pair of teams separated by a few years). It can be done with an odd number in the NBA and NHL, but not really the NFL or MLB. So if Seattle were to get 1 team, where would the other go?

And this doesn't even touch the relocation aspect.
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Old 10-25-2019, 11:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bartonro View Post
No doubt Seattle is high on the list for NBA relocation. If the NBA were to expand though, they would probably expand by 2 teams rather than 1 for scheduling purposes (most league expansions have come in pairs or by a pair of teams separated by a few years). It can be done with an odd number in the NBA and NHL, but not really the NFL or MLB. So if Seattle were to get 1 team, where would the other go?

And this doesn't even touch the relocation aspect.
My assumption is that all of this discussion is largely hypothetical. Has there been any inclination that the NBA is considering expansion, or is this all pie in the sky theory? If yes, then a relocation would seem more likely than expansion no?
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Old 10-25-2019, 11:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
My assumption is that all of this discussion is largely hypothetical. Has there been any inclination that the NBA is considering expansion, or is this all pie in the sky theory? If yes, then a relocation would seem more likely than expansion no?
The NBA and NFL are not looking to expand, so yes this is a more pie in the sky theory. However, the MLB has brought up expansion in the last couple years and the NHL is in the process of expansion, so these are not neccesarily farfetched ideas.

Now for the record, I believe that a mid tier city is most likely to get a team through relocation in the NBA since they seem like the league to bet on mid markets the most (excluding Canadian cities and the NHL), but it won't happen in the near future since I believe most teams have suitable arenas and leases with the arena.

Last edited by bartonro; 10-25-2019 at 12:07 PM..
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