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View Poll Results: CA, OR, WA secession, yes or no?
Yes 15 27.27%
No 40 72.73%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-03-2019, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
360 posts, read 158,130 times
Reputation: 1654

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb05f View Post
California's economy is big enough. As people on C-D often point out, the 5th largest in the world. And I don't know why people are saying California has too many problems to leave the US, or they need help, etc... The federal government isn't doing anything about any California problems. Besides, California sends much more money into the federal budget than what they get back.
What about immigration? If the west leaves the union all the visa workers and folks working for other governments in America would have to leave until their country creates a proper diplomatic relationship. And if the original American states disallow such trade between their established allies (to protect national interests and security. All those great companies that rely on an international workforce would have to pick one nation or another. And I bet they'll pick the nation that has established tax codes that allow them to save billions over a couple progressive states that'll be losing widespread federal support.

The federal dollars aren't the only thing, although it's nothing to simply wave off. In 2014 California received an average of $9,172 per resident; that's over $365 million per year just for California. Oregon and Washington both receive more on average so that's more missing money in the hundreds of millions. This includes money for public schools, federal roadways, various kinds of public infrastructure and social projects such as SSI, programs for the disabled and health care. International trade rules would be invalidated and have to be rehashed; in most cases the new nation would lose billions in trade as negotiations will be tough when competing with the original US. And that's still not including losing military and federal workers who will lose their jobs or relocate out of the new nation. The new nation will have to create their own federal programs and military, then find a way to pay for it; something they never had to do while part of the USA.

It really doesn't matter how independent California or the West seems to be with their GDP; their residents are citizens of the US and are heavily tied to the federal programs and companies that are completely dependant on staying with the United States as a whole (loans, housing, healthcare, immigration, domestic and international trade). The second the federal dollars go away, the extra costs for social programs and infrastructure get added, and companies/individuals desiring or required to stay within the original USA relocate the GDP will look completely different.
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Old 11-03-2019, 05:29 PM
 
Location: southern california
56,499 posts, read 75,611,191 times
Reputation: 49361
Like my ex California wants independence and respect
And an uncle sam MasterCard
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:21 PM
 
4,795 posts, read 2,916,931 times
Reputation: 4300
Wow are you misunderstanding this musicfamily! It's necessary to compare not just the money coming in but also the money paid in taxes.

California has a lot of military bases, defense contracts, public lands, poverty, and so on, but it also has a huge economy.

Same with Washington...we're a donor state.
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:08 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
7,307 posts, read 4,017,743 times
Reputation: 13838
Very dumb idea. Those three states would suffer greatly if on their own. Many of their resident industries would move out. No more federal contracts. They would have to create a military and a nation-state presence. If residents think they are victims of big government now, just wait until they have to pay for their own duplication of federal agencies. Plus the bill for purchasing federal facilities would cripple them. All that holds true for other states thinking about secession.
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
360 posts, read 158,130 times
Reputation: 1654
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
Wow are you misunderstanding this musicfamily! It's necessary to compare not just the money coming in but also the money paid in taxes.

California has a lot of military bases, defense contracts, public lands, poverty, and so on, but it also has a huge economy.

Same with Washington...we're a donor state.
I'm not misunderstanding, I'm pointing out giant holes that would exist with California and the west leaving the United States. The economy is built on the established relationship California has as a member of the United States. It doesn't matter how many big companies you currently have; the second they're HQ are no longer on US soil and the tax code dramatically changes and they end up solely responsible for maintaining the public infrastructure they'll leave.

Because California and the west would be solely responsible for their own defense, public infrastructure and such they would have to tax the companies that currently enjoy low or nonexistent taxes currently. Most of these companies can only operate on the west because of tax breaks awarded to them (such as Boeing, Facebook, Amazon, even movie Studios). And again, you would also see an increased cost in doing business because now this new western country has to adby by the same rules and trade costs that any other foreign county has to deal with. For the majority of companies that'll cost too much when they can simply Go across the border to Salt Lake, Nevada, or Idaho and set up shop just like how they did with San Fran, Seattle, and modern LA.

All those big tax breaks would have to end to support the newfound needs of the established country. Millions of dollars in grants and funding would be in limbo, tossing some companies that depend on these forms of income in instant failure. These big GDP building companies were are first and foremost American and have every ability to completely move to other states that would continue allowing visa holders, federal workers, and accept grants to be used for further innovation and growth. It would only make sense to simply close up shop in the new nation were you would have to completely start over structurally and continue business as usual in the original states.

Your not looking at the picture beyond "Let's break off from the US; we have rich people and Amazon". If you really understood how a larger economy is cultivated and maintained over time for an entire country this wouldn't be so trivial to you.
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:28 PM
 
4,541 posts, read 4,736,153 times
Reputation: 4030
I live in Washington and don't like this idea for a number of reasons. I don't want to live in a country dominated by California.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:02 PM
 
4,795 posts, read 2,916,931 times
Reputation: 4300
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicfamly5 View Post
I'm not misunderstanding, I'm pointing out giant holes that would exist with California and the west leaving the United States. The economy is built on the established relationship California has as a member of the United States. It doesn't matter how many big companies you currently have; the second they're HQ are no longer on US soil and the tax code dramatically changes and they end up solely responsible for maintaining the public infrastructure they'll leave.

Because California and the west would be solely responsible for their own defense, public infrastructure and such they would have to tax the companies that currently enjoy low or nonexistent taxes currently. Most of these companies can only operate on the west because of tax breaks awarded to them (such as Boeing, Facebook, Amazon, even movie Studios). And again, you would also see an increased cost in doing business because now this new western country has to adby by the same rules and trade costs that any other foreign county has to deal with. For the majority of companies that'll cost too much when they can simply Go across the border to Salt Lake, Nevada, or Idaho and set up shop just like how they did with San Fran, Seattle, and modern LA.

All those big tax breaks would have to end to support the newfound needs of the established country. Millions of dollars in grants and funding would be in limbo, tossing some companies that depend on these forms of income in instant failure. These big GDP building companies were are first and foremost American and have every ability to completely move to other states that would continue allowing visa holders, federal workers, and accept grants to be used for further innovation and growth. It would only make sense to simply close up shop in the new nation were you would have to completely start over structurally and continue business as usual in the original states.

Your not looking at the picture beyond "Let's break off from the US; we have rich people and Amazon". If you really understood how a larger economy is cultivated and maintained over time for an entire country this wouldn't be so trivial to you.
Wow, you're missing half of the equation entirely.

Let's simplify this. Say these states currently pay about as much out as they get back in federal dollars. And let's say that they're also roughly equal on business dollars, migration, outside investment, and so on (economies are complicated). The government money would obviously still be about equal in vs. out. There's no reason to believe the same wouldn't be true on the business side after separation. Some inflow would stop, but the NET would stay similar. Many of the core companies in these states have a global clientele already, and there's no reason for that to stop. Immigration and investment would continue to bring money in.

It would be a several-year turnover obviously. Neither side would have the infrastructure to shift things overnight, whether a research grant or a factory. Even then, nobody is replacing some things within a decade if ever...the top labs, the top military bases, seaports, etc.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,786 posts, read 3,877,423 times
Reputation: 3884
California's water supply basically entirely relies on Nevada and Arizona. To leave them for some neoliberal utopia would have LA in a state of a water natural disaster. That problem would carry to its agricultural industry, and even in Northern California too I'm sure.

California only exists how it does right now because it was being favored in water agreements with the Department of Interior over the Colorado River. Without that negotiation power, the US would treat California like we did with Mexico with this particular river, and give no Colorado River water to them. Why would we? They would no longer be a part of our country. California and for argument's sake adding Oregon and Washington into this, would still be dwarfed by the US.
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,787 posts, read 56,008,421 times
Reputation: 15873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
California's water supply basically entirely relies on Nevada and Arizona.
Absolutely false. 96% of California's water is in-state and the other 4% is water rights CA owns on the Colorado river-oh and Mexico also owns water rights on the Colorado as well.
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:27 PM
 
2,407 posts, read 1,203,331 times
Reputation: 3102
California should give it a go this time around, with fires. Accept no FEMA dollars...I should think anyone willing to go it alone, would realize these dollars would no longer be available. California is kind of a mess...way too many problems to go it alone.
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