Where is the Northwest/Southwest border? (transplants, homes, neighborhoods)

[Tom Lennox 70]

So, the Mason-Dixon Line has been brought up many times on this forum, but what about the north-south division in the West? The Mason-Dixion Line only refers to the East Coast. Everything Colorado and westward is defined as west and I know that Oklahoma is usually defined as South-Central while Kansas is Midwest. I know Missouri is considered Lower Midwest while Iowa is Upper Midwest.

But the Southwest/Northwest? I would consider the border to be the border between California and Oregon, between Idaho and Utah, and between Idaho and Nevada. I don't know how Wyoming and Colorado would be classified though Montana can be a Northwest state.

However, it should be noted that despite the above definition, California is interesting. Southern California is clearly Southwestern and Los Angeles has many similarities in culture, lifestyle, development, climate, with Las Vegas and Phoenix. However Northern California has more parellels with Seattle and Portland. Utah is southwestern and mostly desert but it does have snowy mountainous areas.

[backdrifter]

I'd say the line is drawn at Northern California. NorCal, OR, WA, ID, maybe AK and western MT would be Northwest. SoCal, AZ, NM, western TX, NV, UT, and maybe CO would be Southwest.

[vegaspilgrim]

See the thread I started a while back, titled, Different Sub-Regions of the West. There is no exact definition of the "southwest" with boundaries where you enter and leave the "southwest." I prefer to use more specific region names, such as the Desert Southwest and the Pacific Northwest.

If you had to break the 11 western states into subregions where you had to classify an entire state, here's how I would do it:

Southwest: AZ, NM
Mountain West: ID, MT, WY, CO, UT, NV
California: CA (California is it's own region, IMO)
Pacific Northwest: OR, WA
Outliers: AK, HI

Colorado is NOT the northwest. It's just "west." The western slope is part of the Intermountain West, the Rocky Mountains are the Rocky Mountain West, and the eastern third is the Great Plains. Colorado is not even in the northwestern quadrant of the company; it's smack dab in the center (going north to south) and a bit west of center (from east to west). Parts of southern Colorado might even be considered part of the Southwest. Usually when people say "the northwest" they mean the "Pacific Northwest," and normally they're talking about the western parts of Oregon and Washington.

Another possible overlapping region to conceptualize might be called "greater California" or "southern California influence zone," a region which would include all of southern California as well as southern Nevada (Las Vegas) and most of Arizona (especially Phoenix and Tucson). Things like In-n-out Burger, El Pollo Loco can be found in AZ and NV in addition to California.

The only states that can clearly be called The Southwest with no if's, and's, or but's, where nobody in the world would disagree are Arizona and New Mexico. So any region in a nearby state that wants to be included as part of the southwest should ask themselves how Arizony or New Mexicany are they, as the benchmark of southwesternness. I would add the desert portions of southern California, southern Nevada (and possibly all of Nevada), extreme SW Utah (St George area) and pretty much all of south-central and southeast Utah (think Monument Valley, red rock country, Navajo reservations), a couple of slivers of Colorado, and the extreme west part of Texas (El Paso) and well as Big Bend national Park-- that's what I consider the Southwest.

[happ]

PacificNW is, of-course Oregon & Washington & definitely Idaho~Montana~Wyoming are Northwest America. Nevada & Utah have more of a southwest character [esp topography] & Colorado is both [high mts & desert-like lowlands.

California extremes are just as you wrote [north coast down to Bay Area has some similarities to Portland/Seattle]. But inland California from Sacramento/San Joaquin valleys south into SoCal is definitely Southwest America [Arizona~New Mexico].

Texas and even Oklahoma are sometimes classified as Southwest but also are like other high plains states [Kansas~Nebraska~DakotasN&S]

[Tom Lennox 70]

Yeah I've always considered West Texas, probably Odessa westward to be the Southwest. In Nevada, Las Vegas is definitely a Southwestern city but Reno-Sparks seems less so and Lake Tahoe just doesn't have a Southwest feel at all.

However Boise, Idaho is actually located in a desert area and the landscape around the city is parched and dry, more so than Salt Lake City.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

The only states that can clearly be called The Southwest with no if's, and's, or but's, where nobody in the world would disagree are Arizona and New Mexico. So any region in a nearby state that wants to be included as part of the southwest should ask themselves how Arizony or New Mexicany are they, as the benchmark of southwesternness. I would add the desert portions of southern California, southern Nevada (and possibly all of Nevada), extreme SW Utah (St George area) and pretty much all of south-central and southeast Utah (think Monument Valley, red rock country, Navajo reservations), a couple of slivers of Colorado, and the extreme west part of Texas (El Paso) and well as Big Bend national Park-- that's what I consider the Southwest.

I agree with this. Only extreme western Texas is truly southwestern. So I would put the "true" Southwest border along the western border of Texas, so as to "slice off" the trans-pecos" extension. East Texas is truly Southern and the area in between I would label the "Western South"...a sort of unique sub-region of the "Greater South", which is flavored heavily with aspects of the post-bellum West.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by happ

Texas and even Oklahoma are sometimes classified as Southwest but also are like other high plains states [Kansas~Nebraska~DakotasN&S]

Actually, only in certain areas and only in the realm of topography is Texas a plains state. In terms of history, culture, etc, Texas has very little in common with Kansas and states to the north. Settled primarily by migrating Southerners, Texas is essentially a Southern state (although certainly atypical in many ways).

[Ben Around]

Just a little aside... Until the latter half of the 20th century, Minnesota was considered as Northwest. Some of the local businesses had "Northwest" in their names: St. Paul-originated Nothwest Airlines (later Northwest Orient, then back to Northwest again), Minneapolis-based Northwestern Bank and Trust (later re-chistened as "Norwest Bank", now abosorbed by Wells Fargo), and Northwestern Bell Telephone Company (now known as Quest). The now defunct St. Paul-brewed Hamm's Beer's slogan was "The beer that grew with the great Northwest".

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

The only states that can clearly be called The Southwest with no if's, and's, or but's, where nobody in the world would disagree are Arizona and New Mexico. So any region in a nearby state that wants to be included as part of the southwest should ask themselves how Arizony or New Mexicany are they, as the benchmark of southwesternness.

Very interesting observation, Vegas, (and I agree with it). In fact, it prompts a question that I am curious about, and would like to hear the opinion of you and others. That is, what ARE the defining characteristics of the "Southwest"?

To backtrack and provide a little example, some time ago, I started a thread titled: What makes the South "Southern"? )

There were lots of good answers, with some "Deep South purists" limiting it only to the few states of "moonlight and magnolias", all the way out to the notion that it was where "y'all" is the standard way to address a group of more than one person! And all things in between! LOL

But I guess, really, even though it only went to prove the old adage that there are many ways to define the South, certain common denominators that emerged were -- to name a few -- membership in the Confederacy (or in the case of Kentucky "joined later"! LOL), the domination of the Southern Baptist Church, similarities of dialect and idiom, and where a clear majority of people CONSIDERED themselves to live in the South and thought of themselves as "Southerners." And yeah...just a sort of indefinable state of mind and attitude and "feel"....difficult to articulate...but known to both natives and visitors alike, even if from different perspectives.

Anyway, this thread isn't about the South, so back to the point, I would be interested in hearing opinions if the same question were applied to the "Southwest"...? OR..."Northwest" for that matter! I sure don't mean to hijack the thread here!

I have my own...but I have rambled on enough for now! Sorry!

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Very interesting observation, Vegas, (and I agree with it). In fact, it prompts a question that I am curious about, and would like to hear the opinion of you and others. That is, what ARE the defining characteristics of the "Southwest"?

Good question, TexasReb. I like your thoughtful, inquisitive style. While I don't believe a solid definition of the Southwest exists, here is what I consider to be major characteristics of the southwest. The more of these a place has, the more southwestern it is:

• Small, medium, and large metropolitan areas surrounded by 100s and 100s of miles of complete (desert) wilderness or rugged mountains
• A large Mexican-American and Mexican population, including both recent immigrants (legal and illegal) and families who have been here for generations
• Valleys, mountains and drastic elevation differences creates many micro-climates
• While precipitation increases with elevation, in general this is a VERY arid region.
• A large Native American population of historically southwestern tribes, especially the Navajo (Dine), Apache, Pima/Pagago/Tohono O'odham, and Pueblo Indians (Hopi, Laguna Pueblo, Zia Pueblo, etc)
• Southwestern cities have a certain "style" to them-- block walls, 1 story ranch homes built from the 50s-80s, pink tile roof and white stucco and neo-adobe style homes from the late '80s to today, a lot of xeriscaping in the neighborhoods
• Two religions are particularly dominant-- the Catholic Church and the Mormon (LDS) church
• The majority of the land is owned by the federal government.
• A prevalence of tourist-trap kind of towns selling Indian art & jewelry to white people (Sedona, Santa Fe, Taos, Scottsdale are just a few that come to mind)
• A VERY casual, informal culture, not a lot of distinctive regional traditions (other than ethnic traditions); kind of a hodge podge of difference regions of the US. Biggest source of transplants is from California, then from the Midwest.

If I think of some more I'll add them in.