Metro and city population, and how big a city feels (live in, suburban)

[Billiam]

Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70

Ogre....well.....the Washington, D.C. area has a metro population of about 3.5 million and Baltimore about 2 million.

You're stats are wrong -

the DC area has 5.3 million ,
the Baltimore area has 2,668,056

[ogre]

Originally Posted by lammius

Well, Norfolk/Tidewater and Baltimore metros aren't exactly the same size. Tidewater metro is a little under 1.7 million while Baltimore's metro is a little under 2.7 million. Furthermore, the Tidewater metro is very balkanized, consisting of more (and smaller) urban centers than the Baltimore area, and Baltimore city is far more densely populated and developed than anything in Tidewater. I think those reasons, more than any, are why Norfolk feels so much smaller than Baltimore to me.

The Tidewater area's "balkanization" points out something which could really affect this, namely, distribution of a metro area's population, as well as distribution of economic activity. It's similar to Nubianbrotha's point about the number of people who pour into Washington's core area each day. The more concentrated a city's activities, the busier that city will be in its core area. If offices and stores are spread across an entire metro area, the total level of economic activity may be similar to that found in other metros of about the same size, but no one section will seem as active and urban as the downtown of a city where most commercial functions are concentrated downtown. This might account for the large appearance of some cities, which Tom L. pointed out. If a city's activity is concentrated, that city is more likely to have many large buildings clustered together. In a city with business more spread out physically, there is less likely to be a concentrated, impressive skyline.

[citylover94]

Originally Posted by Spade

I just think it's very inaccurate to judge a city's size by people living in imaginary city boundaries. States around the US has different ways of determining a city's boundaries. For example, Houston has 2.1 million in 580 sq miles and thus that makes Houston the 4th largest in the nation. But what if every city has that many sq miles. Houston would than NOT be the 4th largest city. New York's population would push pass 10 million and Chicago would be pushing 4 million and so on and so on. Also, cities usually outgrow their boundaries.

Let's throw out some example of city populations.
San Antonio is bigger than Dallas.
Jacksonville is bigger than Miami.
Memphis is bigger than Atlanta.
Austin is bigger than Boston.
Phoenix is bigger than San Francisco.

Anybody that's visited the cities on the 2nd list would tell you that they are bigger than the city they are supposedly smaller than because of the "feel." San Antonio may have a larger population than Dallas. But San Antonio does not even remotely feel larger Dallas. Jacksonville is not even close to being the same size as Miami. Heck Jacksonville is not even the 2nd largest or 3rd largest metro area in it's state. Yet it is the "largest" city in Florida. That's my opinion though.

Boston is an interesting case because it has not annexed many towns or cities and if it covered as much space as Houston would have a population would be much higher. If the cities of Cambridge, Brookline, Chelsea, Quincy, Newton, and Somerville were annexed by Boston. Boston would cover 113.76 square miles of land and would have a population of 1,069,836 people with a population density of 9,404 people which is three times the density of Houston and half the poulation on about 1/5 the amount of land. That is why in some cases MSA population is important while for some cities it is not as important. One note on this is that Boston will never annex these cities and that some of them are more dense than the city of Boston such as Chelsea and Cambridge.

[citylover94]

Originally Posted by Chicago60614

Here's a list of Urban Areas, Land Areas, and Density.

These are areas that have a contant spread of at least 1,000 people per square mile. If that chain is broken, the urban area is broken. That's why some cities look small, because they're split apart by mostly undeveloped land. There are multiple urban areas within a metro area.

1 New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT UA 17,799,861 8683.2 5309.3
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA UA 11,789,487 4319.9 7068.3
3 Chicago, IL-IN UA 8,307,904 5498.1 3913.6
4 Philadelphia, PA-NJ-DE-MD UA 5,149,079 4660.7 2861.4
5 Miami, FL UA 4,919,036 2890.7 4407.4
6 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX UA 4,145,659 3644.2 2946.4
7 Boston, MA-NH-RI UA 4,032,484 4496.7 2322.6
8 Washington, DC-VA-MD UA 3,933,920 2996 3400.8
9 Detroit, MI UA 3,903,377 3267.1 3094.4
10 Houston, TX UA 3,822,509 3354.7 2951.1
11 Atlanta, GA UA 3,499,840 5083.1 1783.3
12 San Francisco-Oakland, CA UA 3,228,605 1364 6130.4
13 Phoenix-Mesa, AZ UA 2,907,049 2069.4 3638.3
14 Seattle, WA UA 2,712,205 2469.9 2844.1
15 San Diego, CA UA 2,674,436 2026.1 3418.7
16 Minneapolis-Saint Paul, MN UA 2,388,593 2316 2671.2
17 Saint Louis, MO-IL UA 2,077,662 2147 2506.4
18 Baltimore, MD UA 2,076,354 1768.3 3041.3
19 Tampa-Saint Petersburg, FL UA 2,062,339 2077.9 2570.6
20 Denver-Aurora, CO UA 1,984,889 1292 3979.1
21 Cleveland, OH UA 1,786,647 1675.7 2761.4
22 Pittsburgh, PA UA 1,753,136 2207.7 2056.7
23 Portland, OR-WA UA 1,583,138 1227.5 3340.3
24 San Jose, CA UA 1,538,312 673.7 5914.1
25 Riverside-San Bernardino, CA UA 1,506,816 1136.4 3434.1
26 Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN UA 1,503,262 1739.9 2237.8
27 Virginia Beach, VA UA 1,394,439 1364.4 2647
28 Sacramento, CA UA 1,393,498 955.8 3776.1
29 Kansas City, MO-KS UA 1,361,744 1513.6 2330.1
30 San Antonio, TX UA 1,327,554 1055.6 3257.3
31 Las Vegas, NV UA 1,314,357 740.5 4597.1
32 Milwaukee, WI UA 1,308,913 1261.4 2687.5
33 Indianapolis- Carmel, IN UA 1,218,919 1432.1 2204.5
34 Providence, RI-MA UA 1,174,548 1304.4 2332.2
35 Orlando, FL UA 1,157,431 1173.8 2554
36 Columbus, OH UA 1,133,193 1030.1 2849.3
37 New Orleans, LA UA 1,009,283 512.4 5101.6
38 Buffalo, NY UA 976,703 949.7 2663.5
39 Memphis, TN-MS-AR UA 972,091 1035.5 2431.3
40 Austin, TX UA 901,920 823.9 2835.1
41 Bridgeport-Stamford, CT-NY UA 888,890 1205.1 1910.3
42 Salt Lake City, UT UA 887,650 597.6 3847.3
43 Jacksonville, FL UA 882,295 1063.2 2149.2
44 Louisville, KY-IN UA 863,582 1013.5 2207
45 Hartford, CT UA 851,535 1215.6 1814.3
46 Richmond, VA UA 818,836 1131.2 1874.8
47 Charlotte, NC-SC UA 758,927 1126.4 1745
48 Nashville-Davidson County, TN UA 749,935 1115.7 1740.9
49 Oklahoma City, OK UA 747,003 834.9 2317.4
50 Tucson, AZ UA 720,425 754.6 2472.7
51 Honolulu, HI UA 718,182 399.2 4659.8
52 Dayton, OH UA 703,444 838 2174.1
53 Rochester, NY UA 694,396 764.4 2352.7
54 El Paso, TX-NM UA 674,801 567.5 3079.6
55 Birmingham, AL UA 663,615 1015.5 1692.5
56 Omaha, NE-IA UA 626,623 586.3 2768.3
57 Madison, WI UA 601,283 582.1 2892.7
58 Albuquerque, NM UA 598,191 580 2671.1
59 Allentown-Bethlehem, PA-NJ UA 576,408 749.8 1991.1
60 Springfield, MA-CT UA 573,610 800.3 1856.5
61 Akron, OH UA 570,215 797.2 1852.5
62 Sarasota-Bradenton, FL UA 559,229 700.4 2067.8
63 Albany, NY UA 558,947 736.2 1966.4
64 Tulsa, OK UA 558,329 677 2135.9
65 Fresno, CA UA 554,923 359 4003.1
66 Concord, CA UA 552,624 457 3131.8
67 Raleigh, NC UA 541,527 827.8 1694.3
68 Grand Rapids, MI UA 539,080 666.5 2094.7
69 Mission Viejo, CA UA 533,015 354.5 3893.9
70 New Haven, CT UA 531,314 738.9 1862.2
71 McAllen, TX UA 523,144 812.8 1667
72 Toledo, OH-MI UA 503,008 524 2486.1
73 Baton Rouge, LA UA 479,019 726.9 1706.8
74 Colorado Springs, CO UA 466,122 511.2 2361.7
75 Worcester, MA-CT UA 429,882 648.3 1717.3
76 Charleston-North Charleston, SC UA 423,410 598.1 1833.4
77 Wichita, KS UA 422,301 464.9 2352.5
78 Columbia, SC UA 420,537 696.5 1563.7
79 Knoxville, TN UA 419,830 879.3 1236.7
80 Ogden-Layton, UT UA 417,933 466.3 2321.1
81 Youngstown, OH-PA UA 417,437 591.2 1828.7
82 Syracuse, NY UA 402,267 465.3 2239.1
83 Bakersfield, CA UA 396,125 285.7 3590.5
84 Palm Bay-Melbourne, FL UA 393,289 569.1 1789.8
85 Scranton, PA UA 385,237 411 2427.4
86 Des Moines, IA UA 370,505 363.4 2640.4
87 Flint, MI UA 365,096 598.6 1579.7
88 Harrisburg, PA UA 362,782 539.7 1740.9
89 Little Rock, AR UA 360,331 532.4 1752.8
90 Poughkeepsie-Newburgh, NY UA 351,982 686.3 1328.3
91 Chattanooga, TN-GA UA 343,509 751.1 1184.5
92 Oxnard, CA UA 337,591 196.1 4459.7
93 Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC UA 335,630 600.3 1448
94 Spokane, WA-ID UA 334,858 370.5 2340.8
95 Cape Coral, FL UA 329,757 496.8 1719.1
96 Pensacola, FL-AL UA 323,783 568.1 1476
97 Lancaster, PA UA 323,554 516.5 1622.4
98 Mobile, AL UA 317,605 545.9 1506.9
99 Stockton, CA UA 313,392 192.4 4218.4
100 Modesto, CA UA 310,945 222.9 3612.4
101 Reno, NV UA 303,689 307.2 2560.5
102 Provo-Orem, UT UA 303,680 220.2 3572.7
103 Greenville, SC UA 302,194 586.7 1334
104 Lansing, MI UA 300,032 354.5 2192.1
105 Denton-Lewisville, TX UA 299,823 314.9 2466.2
106 Winston-Salem, NC UA 299,290 651.1 1190.6
107 Corpus Christi, TX UA 293,925 285.7 2665
108 Jackson, MS UA 292,637 416.6 1819.4
109 Durham, NC UA 287,796 406.1 1835.7
110 Fort Wayne, IN UA 287,759 350.3 2127.6
111 Santa Rosa, CA UA 285,408 264.1 2798.5
112 Ann Arbor, MI UA 283,904 333.5 2205
113 South Bend, IN-MI UA 276,498 403.5 1774.7
114 Fayetteville, NC UA 276,368 432.9 1653.6
115 Shreveport, LA UA 275,213 400.6 1779.4
116 Boise, ID UA 272,625 281.5 2508.5
117 Port Saint Lucie, FL UA 270,774 437.8 1602
118 Davenport, IA-IL UA 270,626 320.8 2184.8
119 Rockford, IL UA 270,414 360.2 1944.3
120 Trenton, NJ UA 268,472 238.6 2914.4
121 Greensboro, NC UA 267,884 350.9 1977.5
122 Canton, OH UA 266,595 371.7 1857.7
123 Lancaster-Palmdale, CA UA 263,532 234.1 2915.3
124 Daytona Beach-Port Orange, FL UA 255,353 294.1 2248.6
125 Indio-Cathedral City-Palm Springs, CA UA 254,856 255.3 2585
126 Lexington-Fayette County, KY UA 250,994 180.1 3608.9
127 Peoria, IL UA 247,172 318.9 2007.2
128 Barnstable, MA UA 243,667 741.1 851.5
129 Columbus, GA-AL UA 242,324 352.6 1779.8
130 Reading, PA UA 240,264 260.7 2387.2
131 Temecula-Murrieta, CA UA 229,810 247.6 2404
132 Atlantic City, NJ UA 227,180 313 1879.7
133 Round Lake Beach-McHenry-Grayslake, IL-WI UA 226,848 344.9 1703.7
134 Lincoln, NE UA 226,582 202.3 2900.6
135 Anchorage, AK UA 225,744 204.2 2863
136 Eugene, OR UA 224,049 177.4 3270.8
137 Asheville, NC UA 221,570 535.5 1071.6
138 Bonita Springs-Naples, FL UA 221,251 389.1 1472.9
139 Antioch, CA UA 217,591 156.1 3609.8
140 Springfield, MO UA 215,004 294 1894.2
141 Huntsville, AL UA 213,253 407.2 1356.5
142 Evansville, IN-KY UA 211,989 273.8 2005.2
143 Thousand Oaks, CA UA 210,990 223.2 2448.6
144 Savannah, GA UA 208,886 265.2 2040.1
145 Salem, OR UA 207,229 179.3 2993.9
146 Fort Collins, CO UA 206,757 216.7 2471.6
147 Gulfport-Biloxi, MS UA 205,754 349.4 1525.1
148 Tallahassee, FL UA 204,260 294.9 1793.7
149 Lubbock, TX UA 202,225 193 2713.7
150 Victorville-Hesperia-Apple Valley, CA UA 200,436 321.1 1616.8

I noticed that you were using UA populations but Bostons number is the whole MSA which i admit could be that dense but i wanted to check that you had that right. If so please let me know.

[stlouisan]

A city from my experience feels very big if the downtown is large and filled with many tall skyscrapers, combined with a sizable metro area Seattle for example, is only just over 3 million people, and I think the Vancouver metro isn't much bigger, but looking at them in pictures, one gets the idea they are at least 4 million. I think how new it seems to appear to be also can make it seem larger. A good example is downtown Nashville or Charlotte...looking at those you would think they are at least 2.5 million people.

To be honest, a city feels as big as it looks if it has an in-between-sized downtown (St. Louis or Cleveland, for example) and a very continous urban sprawl across multiple counties to it plus additional skylines (St. Louis has Clayton, Cleveland has Akron and Canton)...these are just some of my observations. Pittsburgh because of how tall some of its buildings are and how large its downtown is seems like it should be bigger. Detroit actually looks like it should be smaller, because for a metro with over 4 million, it's downtown is pretty pathetic.

Also, I know for a fact that some of your stats are wrong. St. Louis and Cleveland as metro areas both have populations above 2.5 million (especially if you include Akron-Canton, which is only logical considering how close they are).

[MikeyAusmus]

Originally Posted by ogre

I've seen a number of posts on this forum where users have made the assertion that metro area population has more bearing than principal city population on how large a city feels, or how large it is in effective practical terms. Generally I agree with this, but I wonder sometimes whether a city below a certain population threshold would look and feel smaller than a larger city with a similar metro area population. Or whether two cities with similar populations would seem different in size if their metropolitan area populations were significantly different.

Hypothetical examples:

One city has a population of150k, another has 450k, and both have metro area populations of a little over a million, say, 1.1-1.2 million. Does the city of 450k seem larger, or does the similar metro area population make them both look and feel similar?

Two cities have populations of around 500k. One has a metro area population of three million, while the other has approx. 1.5 million people in its metro area. Even with similar city populations, does the city with twice the metro area population feel much, much larger, or do they seem closer in size than this?

I'd be interested in users' thoughts, especially thoughts from people who are familiar with two or more cities with either similar city populations but different metro populations, or vice versa.

The metro population does play a factor into how big the city feels. But there is a difference in some cities "metro" populations that even having relatively the same metro size, one still feels bigger. For example, Greater Houston and DFW. Houston has 6.1M and DFW has 6.5M. Houston seems much bigger because it is a single city metro area as DFW has 2 major cities within their metro area. If you look at just Dallas in the DFW area it seems significantly smaller than Houston when you take away the Fort Worth population out of the picture.

[nei]

The Town of Hempstead (in Long Island) has more people than either Fort Worth or Detroit. Denser than either, too.

[nei]

Originally Posted by citylover94

I noticed that you were using UA populations but Bostons number is the whole MSA which i admit could be that dense but i wanted to check that you had that right. If so please let me know.

Boston's number is the correct urban area population. MSA is similar to the urban area population because nearby areas are contained in separated MSAs (Worcester and Providence are neither in the Boston urban area nor MSA).

[nei]

Originally Posted by stlouisan

A city from my experience feels very big if the downtown is large and filled with many tall skyscrapers, combined with a sizable metro area Seattle for example, is only just over 3 million people, and I think the Vancouver metro isn't much bigger, but looking at them in pictures, one gets the idea they are at least 4 million.

No. The Vancouver metro area is smaller than Seattle. The Vancouver metro has a population of 2.3 million, about the same as Portland (2.2 million). Seattle is 3.3 million. The city population of both Portland and Vancouver are about the same, too.

Vanvouver feels much bigger than Portland to me, and maybe a little bigger than Seattle. Vancouver's downtown feels busier than Seattle's.

[0'Farrell]

Let me explain the way this works. NYC is the largest city in the nation followed by San Francisco. You should only count the immediate 50 mile square boundary and no more. Density should also be taken into account.