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Old 10-22-2017, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Colorado
390 posts, read 232,359 times
Reputation: 710

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First off, many rust belt cities remain much stronger than people give them credit for. The Detroit MSA, which is the poster child of "de-industrialization", is still the 14 largest economy in the entire USA. St. Louis, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati all remain top 30 MSA economies 50 years after de-industrialization started.

But you can't rest on your laurels forever. I do think these cities need to invent new opportunities for themselves and work to become established centers of excellence some new economy industries. Yes they can recover by working for it, not by wishing for it.

Last edited by ms12345; 10-22-2017 at 05:35 PM..
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Old 10-23-2017, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis, IN
571 posts, read 844,881 times
Reputation: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDBaumgardner View Post
Anybody saying that there's no hope of any rebound in Cleveland clearly has not been here in the past 5, or even the past 2 years.

The population losses have begun to level off and the city's central core now boasts the largest and still rapidly growing downtown district in the state of Ohio. There have been BILLIONS OF DOLLARS in new and re-purposed development throughout the city limits, but especially in the central core of the city.

Guess what? There's BILLIONS more in new construction and new development still coming down the pipeline, too. It seems like every other day there's some type of positive HEADLINE regarding Cleveland as it relates to business growth or new development ...

Here's just one of the latest examples:

Game changing bio-med center coming to Cleveland | cleveland.com
Yep. People are definitely sleeping on Cleveland.
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Old 10-23-2017, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,845,639 times
Reputation: 4511
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I believe it still qualifies, even if it isnít, there are still enough examples that makes the point I was trying to make.
I don't think so, and I think there are enough examples to counter your point. You seem to suggest the Sun Belt is all-inclusive of the South and West, which is mistaken. There are close to zero definitions that would have anywhere in Virginia listed as Sun Belt, though I do think certain parts of Virginia have characteristics if the Sun Belt...

Richmond's weather is semi-indicative of the Sun Belt but the comparisons stop there. Its winters are definitely colder and snowier. It's population growth has been nowhere near as explosive as true Sun Belt cities, and it's city population is still 10.5% below it's 1970 peak population, 47 years ago. Furthermore, really examining it's population loss, Richmond's 1970 population gain was the result of that year's annexation of southern suburbs into the city; were it not for that, Richmond City realistically lost population for 50 straight years, a trend that didn't reverse itself until the mid-2000s. Five continuous decades of population loss? Sounds more like a Rust Belt city to me...

Of course, Richmond's economy was never heavily industrial. It also was never booned by tourism or "new" industries (such as the rise of technology) like the Sun Belt. Richmond doesn't face the same environmental threats as much of the Sun Belt, either. The built form if the actual city of Richmond is heavily non-Sun Belt; its suburbs are like any suburb anywhere...

I just wanted to clear some things up and point out that it's dishonest to refer to Richmond as Sunbelt. South does not equal Sun Belt!
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Old 10-23-2017, 08:45 AM
 
1,405 posts, read 1,647,514 times
Reputation: 1439
^^^I'm sorry but in no way is Cleveland having a renaissance, and that term has been used there ever since Voinovich was mayor. Seattle is having a renaissance. Austin. New York. DC.


Population depletion, household incomes, and crime rates are what matters, not downtown beautifications. A few neighborhoods in the west side and University Circle's momentum are having good runs, but the VAST majority of east side neighborhoods and a depressing growing number of formerly stable west side neighborhoods are falling hard.
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Old 10-23-2017, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,372 posts, read 2,797,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBideon View Post
^^^I'm sorry but in no way is Cleveland having a renaissance, and that term has been used there ever since Voinovich was mayor. Seattle is having a renaissance. Austin. New York. DC.


Population depletion, household incomes, and crime rates are what matters, not downtown beautifications. A few neighborhoods in the west side and University Circle's momentum are having good runs, but the VAST majority of east side neighborhoods and a depressing growing number of formerly stable west side neighborhoods are falling hard.
Thank goodness, not all of us in Cleveland share such a dire and foreboding vision. If you can't recognize the immense progress that is HAPPENING, I guess you never will.

As far as the embattled and tattered East side neighborhoods you spoke of, it's going to take some time for the positive momentum to reach these areas. Abandoned structures are being demolished, thus making a way for future development.

Cleveland fell very hard, but agonizingly slow over a period of decades, so it's going to take just as much time in restoring it fully.

I believe in this city ... Can you say the same? I certainly doubt it based upon your very narrow vision.

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Old 10-23-2017, 10:03 AM
 
3,236 posts, read 1,567,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBideon View Post
^I'm sorry but in no way is Cleveland having a renaissance, and that term has been used ever since Voinovich was mayor. Seattle is having a renaissance. Austin. New York.
Population depletion, household incomes, and crime rates are what matters, not downtown beautifications.
I think you generalize here too. Revitalization begins CORES outward. Seattle has MILD WINTERS going for it. Austin is a HUGE Texas College town where more graduates are staying after school. NYC is just so sought after .... that even the grittiest looking areas are sought today. But in the 70s .... not nearly as much . Just decades further along or even one in some cities over others.

Some rust-belt cities merely got later starts in gentrification CORES outward. Some cities technically are NOT in rust-belt like Boston, NYC, Philly and Baltimore. But many seeing the cities neighborhoods would think otherwise. Seem Steel and Heavy industry is RUST-BELT but NOT Textile mills and other lost manufacturing?

Some cities removed their old rust-belt abandoned buildings much more then others too. The sooner a city started recovery and gentrification ..... again CORE OUTWARD? The more into recovery seen today.

As for Cleveland? It merely got a later start then some other cities so less levels perhaps. But to compare it to Seattle that is more sunbelt then not in MILD but wet winters and Austin ... TOTALLY in the Sun-belt and NYC in a class all its own is a bit ridicules .....

If Cleveland was in the sunbelt or Mild Pacific Northwest? It would have greater amounts too. Winters affect some cities greatly today. Cleveland gets more lake-effect heavier snowfalls by its location on southern Lake Erie. More and more we are a Nation wanting to escape cold and snow.

Population trends still have most northern states losing population. Major cities may have slow growth to declines overall. But generally some neighborhoods bleed population as rising ones increase in the areas and NEIGHBORHOODS UNDERGOING MORE A RENEISSANCE.

Chicago .... for example - lost population recently but is expected a very modest gain in the coming census. It has a BOOMING live-in core and neighborhoods outward. Increases in populations there were off-set by losses in its HOOD neighborhoods with large population - declines of African-Americans.

This degree has altered demographics to the Latino population now as a HIGHER % then African-Americans in that city. https://www.economist.com/blogs/demo...caganos-rising

The black population shrunk by more than 42,000 residents in 2016 now at 29.3 percent of the cityís population. Latinos now at 29.7 %. Whites make up the cityís largest racial group at nearly 882,000, or 32.6 percent of city residents. White including Latinos as White is about 50%. But ---- African-Americans in Chicago declined by more than 180,000 .... just between 2000 and 2010 and ongoing still since.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:48 AM
 
1,405 posts, read 1,647,514 times
Reputation: 1439
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDBaumgardner View Post
Thank goodness, not all of us in Cleveland share such a dire and foreboding vision. If you can't recognize the immense progress that is HAPPENING, I guess you never will.

As far as the embattled and tattered East side neighborhoods you spoke of, it's going to take some time for the positive momentum to reach these areas. Abandoned structures are being demolished, thus making a way for future development.

Cleveland fell very hard, but agonizingly slow over a period of decades, so it's going to take just as much time in restoring it fully.

I believe in this city ... Can you say the same? I certainly doubt it based upon your very narrow vision.

Mate, nothing wrong with believing in a city and of course there is some reason for optimism. But to use the word "renaissance" is just a misnomer. Every city is having a "renaissance" if you consider Cleveland to be in the midst in one, and you must admit that term has been thrown around for decades now. I look at stats like daytime workforce population, household incomes, demographics, homicide rate/police response time, number of cranes, home values, people in their 20s returning after college or grad school, etc.


Maybe it's a slow burn forward - and frankly, even that I doubt - but how is that a renaissance? The term has certain implications.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
8,773 posts, read 7,717,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBideon View Post
^^^I'm sorry but in no way is Cleveland having a renaissance, and that term has been used there ever since Voinovich was mayor. Seattle is having a renaissance. Austin. New York. DC.


Population depletion, household incomes, and crime rates are what matters, not downtown beautifications. A few neighborhoods in the west side and University Circle's momentum are having good runs, but the VAST majority of east side neighborhoods and a depressing growing number of formerly stable west side neighborhoods are falling hard.
This is pretty fair. Cleveland is definitely getting better for the people who already had it pretty good. More of a downtown playground is present. But yes, population still falling, crime still very very high. It's a mixed bag. In general I think the future is brighter for Cleveland than many think. But we will see how much the city gov meddles.
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Old 10-23-2017, 11:10 AM
 
387 posts, read 369,223 times
Reputation: 294
Actually in order for Cleveland to truly make a comeback, then it would have to regain a lot of it’s lost population. Cleveland still suffers from population erosion, and that is one problem that must be solved or otherwise Cleveland will become a ghost town along Detroit, Gary, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Youngstown, Allentown, and so many others. The revitalization has really only garnered limited success so far, so Cleveland is still far from doing well.
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Old 10-23-2017, 11:15 AM
 
2,167 posts, read 1,470,191 times
Reputation: 2176
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPetty View Post
Actually in order for Cleveland to truly make a comeback, then it would have to regain a lot of it’s lost population. Cleveland still suffers from population erosion, and that is one problem that must be solved or otherwise Cleveland will become a ghost town along Detroit, Gary, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Youngstown, Allentown, and so many others. The revitalization has really only garnered limited success so far, so Cleveland is still far from doing well.
Pittsburgh is certainly not a ghost town, its kind of booming. There are some ghost towns in the nearby former mill towns of the Mon valley, though.
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