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Old 06-17-2008, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Chariton, Iowa
681 posts, read 2,773,845 times
Reputation: 446

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Perhaps you can explain this a little better, I still don't quite understand. If you are talking about water routes, yes, you are correct. But much trade is conducted by air these days, or overland by truck. Now you're going to say the price of gasoline is going up, up, up. But the rising price of oil affects all transport, not just road and air travel. I don't know what you mean about cities with no intrinsic value. Maybe you could give some examples of such cities. One reason these cities lost population is the climate. What's wrong with wanting to live in a decent climate?
As you say, gas is going up. Which will make barge transport all the more popular. An average semi gets around 60 ton/miles per gallon of fuel (ton/mile being the work of carrying one ton of cargo one mile). Trains do significantly better, around 200 ton/miles per gallon. Barges, however, do the best of all--over 500 ton/miles per gallon of fuel. It makes sense that with the high cost of fuel that rail/river/Great Lake port centers will continue to be important.

Secondly, there's the problem of "decent climate". Different people have different interpretations of what a "decent climate" is and different tolerances for temperature, rain/snow, cloudy days, etc. Nothing is wrong at all with wanting to live in a "decent climate"--there's just no universal standard for what that is.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:47 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,038 posts, read 102,742,261 times
Reputation: 33084
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharpHawkeye View Post
As you say, gas is going up. Which will make barge transport all the more popular. An average semi gets around 60 ton/miles per gallon of fuel (ton/mile being the work of carrying one ton of cargo one mile). Trains do significantly better, around 200 ton/miles per gallon. Barges, however, do the best of all--over 500 ton/miles per gallon of fuel. It makes sense that with the high cost of fuel that rail/river/Great Lake port centers will continue to be important.

Secondly, there's the problem of "decent climate". Different people have different interpretations of what a "decent climate" is and different tolerances for temperature, rain/snow, cloudy days, etc. Nothing is wrong at all with wanting to live in a "decent climate"--there's just no universal standard for what that is.
Well, regardless, the cost of barge shipping will go up proportionately. Re: the climate issue, I was responding to this:

Quote:
On the other hand many cities are in places that no longer have intrinsic value, it's just that people used to go there for reasons such as mining and now people like the climate and such and are used to a city being there. But someday when things collapse they'll be among the first places abandoned.
I would like to know which cities that poster considers to have "no intrinsic value", and how s/he is so sure they'll be abandoned.
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:43 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 18,774,076 times
Reputation: 10164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I would like to know which cities that poster considers to have "no intrinsic value", and how s/he is so sure they'll be abandoned.

Phoenix for example. Denver. LasVegas. Cities that have little trade, agricultural or industrial value. Cities that can only exist in a wealthy society with plenty of surplus money and resources. As our society becomes poorer and weaker such places will wither.

The Midwest, which has superb soil, water, timber, coal and iron and water routes to move those things around, will always be a viable place.
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Old 06-18-2008, 06:49 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,038 posts, read 102,742,261 times
Reputation: 33084
I have to go off to work this morning, but be prepared to hear about Denver's "intrinsic value" soon! First of all, what do you think is going on here, that is keeping the better part of 3 million people occupied?

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 06-18-2008 at 06:56 AM.. Reason: addition
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Old 06-18-2008, 11:42 AM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,066,992 times
Reputation: 3491
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastle View Post
Yes, it is true that there are certain cities that are desperate for salvation (Cleveland, Detroit, Gary, Buffalo, Rochester, Toledo, Erie, Duluth, Milwaukee among others) Cleveland, according to the Federal Reserve Bank, is the poorest big city in the US wiht 1/3 of it's residents living in poverty. In today's society, families can choose to live in a number of cities and still work for the same employer. So, this poverty rate may say something more about Cleveland than other Great Lakes Cities.

The focus of the region should be to tap into the wealth of educated young workers and seek ways to keep them in the region rather than seeing vast amounts of young students, and young families leave the region for better prospects in "cooler cities" like Seattle, Portland, and cities in the South and East like Miami and Charlotte.

The detractor is that most Great Lakes Cities do not offer the high job growth, high average pay, and employment opportuntites that other major metros offer to the same degree. Notable exceptions include Chicago and perhaps Pittsburgh.
I wouldn't put Duluth in that category. Economically, they hit bottom sometime in the early 80s, but they've been on the upswing since. Their steel-based economy has shrunk from what it was, but they are still shipping lots of ore out of the port. And they have developed a vibrant tourist industry (yes, I know, lousy wages, but they haven't rolled over and played dead.) They still have decent schools, and their crime and poverty rates are laughable compared to Rust Belt and Sun Belt cities.
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Old 06-18-2008, 11:50 AM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,066,992 times
Reputation: 3491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117 View Post
If the 'Rust Belt' is going to change, the change must be political first, as really that is what caused the problems to begin with. Workers became too Unioinized, and it was becoming unprofitable for the companies who relied on them. Instead of waiting around for the workers to demand even more, the companies packed up and moved South. It isn't really anything new, this has been going on since the end of World War II.

Red States (i.e. the Sunbelt) allow for much more favorable business conditions. A motivated and ethical workforce, as well as lower costs of living allow people to survive on 30-40K per year. Unions are practically non-existent, and as a result the Sunbelt is growing. European manufactures have also flocked to the Sunbelt. The Rust Belt sticks true to its name with the urban decay, but such is the price for Liberalism.
Come on, Frankie, how about a sense of proportion here?? If it wasn't for the American union movement, you'd be picking cotton 7 days a week and living in a shack provided by the plantation owner, and I'd be working in an unsafe factory 6 days a week, renting a tenament apartment. Learn your history!
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Old 06-18-2008, 02:58 PM
 
721 posts, read 2,354,739 times
Reputation: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
I wouldn't put Duluth in that category. Economically, they hit bottom sometime in the early 80s, but they've been on the upswing since. Their steel-based economy has shrunk from what it was, but they are still shipping lots of ore out of the port. And they have developed a vibrant tourist industry (yes, I know, lousy wages, but they haven't rolled over and played dead.) They still have decent schools, and their crime and poverty rates are laughable compared to Rust Belt and Sun Belt cities.
Duluth should be in this category as it is the starting off point of all the iron ore mined from the Mesabi Range north of Duluth. Duluth ships out over 30 million tons of ore annually. Duluth suffered tremendous population and job losses as a result of the steel industry decline in the '70's and '80's. Over 20% of the poluation left the city and at one time in the mid 80's the unemployment rate was hovering at 18%. There were over 18,000 people employed in mining related inustries in 1980. By 1990 that figure dropped to 7,000 and by 2000 it had dropped to 3,500. US Steel's Duluth Works closed in th late 70's and all operations closed by 1987, and 4,500 people were out of a job.

Yes, the city has made great strides in redevelopment and the city is faring much better now than 20 years ago, but the jobs that replaced the mines pay half or less and do not offer benefits or provide a livable wage. At least 15% of the popluation of Duluth lives below the poverty line. The schools face declinign enrollment and the city cannot afford to resurface more than .98 of a mile of its streets this year.

The major employers are Government, healthcare, education, and tourism. I found a decent paying job in Duluth and love the community and actively partipcate in promoting a pro busines attitude which is generally difficult in a union town. Most businesses would rather relocate or expand elsewhere than deal with unions.

I do believe that the Rust Belt will rebound and see growth in the future-not uncontrolled or fast growth, but smart and slow .
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:47 PM
 
Location: moving again
4,382 posts, read 15,334,251 times
Reputation: 1594
I definently think it will rebound. Gradually though, which imo is by far the best way. When you look at cities who are being FLOODED with growth, you see how gross it can get with housing and how the cities images just change in an instant. Someday i think these cities will gain back their former glory.
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:13 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,038 posts, read 102,742,261 times
Reputation: 33084
Quote:
Phoenix for example. Denver. LasVegas. Cities that have little trade, agricultural or industrial value. Cities that can only exist in a wealthy society with plenty of surplus money and resources.
Just what do you think is going on in Denver? For comparison, here is what someone said about Duluth:
Quote:
The major employers are Government, healthcare, education, and tourism.
Sounds a lot like Denver's economy:

Quote:
Denver's west-central geographic location in the Mountain Time Zone (UTC -7) also benefits the telecommunications industry by allowing communication with both North American coasts, South America, Europe, and Asia in the same business day. Denver's location on the 105th meridian at over 1-mile (1.6 km) in elevation also enables it to be the largest city in the U.S. to offer a 'one-bounce' real-time satellite uplink to six continents in the same business day.
From Wikipedia: Denver, Colorado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those are my two sentences I am allowed to quote. You will actually have to click on the link and read the rest of the article yourselves. Irsishtom29, what do you think people here do for a living? We aren't all ski bums. In fact, the ski bums live in the mountains. Most people down here are gainfully emoplyed doing the same things that are done in the rust belt. Pittsburgh is trying to revive its economy based on health care and education. You don't need to be on three rivers for that!
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Old west side, Ann Arbor, MI
689 posts, read 2,046,360 times
Reputation: 279
Default Rust is hard to stop!

Having been a resident of Michigan for most of my life, I can say with first hand experience...turning around a stigma that was born years ago is almost impossible. Statistics are misleading, and often do not account for the thousands of individuals who have stopped looking for employment, dropping off the "unemployed list" which calculates unemployment rates.

Michigan's governor boasts about bringing 600 or 300 jobs to a state with nearly 100,000 people without work. Surrounding states are not excluded from this danger, people want a positive life, more income, and stability, none which exist in any town in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana or Pen at this point.

First and foremost, the union mentality that has been the "way" of the once prominent northern manufacturing region has cause a cataclysmic shift in the way the world sees production, not to mention, a permanent stigma for Michigan. The forces of emigration have been at work for the last decade, with Michigan loosing almost a million people since the late 1990s. One of the only ways Michigan and other states will revive is to completely change their economic structure, tax base, and retain YOUNG PROFESSIONALS. More adults aged 20-29 are leaving than any other age group. This problem isn't just about manufacturing, or unions, its about a state government that gave up a long time ago.
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