Would it be weird for a non-white person to fly the Confederate flag? (home, living in)

[djmilf]

Originally Posted by kittywoman

Hey I fly it, on my truck, in my house, on my website, yada yada... I don't feel it has anything to do with race, from what i've learned in history it had nothing to do with respresenting race it just was around during a time of slavery. I fly it cuz I'm TEXAS yeehaw baby, redneck as all getout and love bein a souther girl. Go for it!

Ah, but do you fly it above or below the Lone Star flag?

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

Texas, you know I concur with you pretty much point by point, but I have to say that when Lincoln spoke the Gettysburg address I think he did so with the utmost sincerity. I think that Lincoln would never have gone to war to free the slaves, but his commitment to the Union of states was so deep, and his fear so great that if states began seceding the entire Union would utterly collapse, that he put aside his ethics and his qualms about sacrificing the millions of lives on both sides to see the Union through. Lincoln intellectually and philosophically saw the Union as the greatest opportunity for humanity to realize its potential. If we look at his historical context, the United States was a miraculous innovation from all the European monarchies, and it had set a precedent that the French people had already staged a revolution and overthrown a monarchy, so the world was looking to us. If we failed, we didn't just fail ourselves, we failed the world.

Let me first of all say, DC, it is nice to be able to discuss with a reasonable person such as yourself (same as with Irish Tom and others who proceed from fact and principle, whether or not I disagree with the same).

In this case though, I think you are cannonizing Lincoln a bit. I don't doubt his basic committment to the Union as he saw it. But at the same time, I think (with historical justification) he either sorely misunderstood the concepts of the said Union as originally founded, or used it as an excuse to force the Southern states back into the Union because he feared losing the tax base...

I respect that he was a man of iron will...but he was hardly an idealist. He favored sending blacks back to Africa and didn't believe in racial equality. And I want to make it clear I am NOT condemning him for such sentiments. MANY folks of that age felt the same way. Everyone is a product of their time...just as will you and I be a century down the road! LOL

What I am saying though, is that, even if, which again is debatable, that Lincoln truly believed his own spurious arguments to justify invading the Southern states, which only wanted to go their own way in peace? Then he was also going against many if not most of the principles the nation was founded on. And again, if a Union has to be held together by force, it is no longer a true Union.

As a final tangental note. Ok, what if the South had succeeded in winning its independence? Just as the winners write the history on what did happen, they often write the projected history....as to what would have happened.

As it is, the Confederacy wanted to negotiate a defensive and economic alliance with the northern states. There is a good chance -- a great one in fact -- that the two nations may have reconciliated, reunited, and both been the better for it. Or, at worst, be the closest of allies today...such as we are with Great Britian. And sharing an unguarded border as do we with Canada. I don't see how, in fact, it could have been any different...

But anyway, thanks!

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Let me first of all say, DC, it is nice to be able to discuss with a reasonable person such as yourself (same as with Irish Tom and others who proceed from fact and principle, whether or not I disagree with the same).

In this case though, I think you are cannonizing Lincoln a bit. I don't doubt his basic committment to the Union as he saw it. But at the same time, I think (with historical justification) he either sorely misunderstood the concepts of the said Union as originally founded, or used it as an excuse to force the Southern states back into the Union because he feared losing the tax base...

I respect that he was a man of iron will...but he was hardly an idealist. He favored sending blacks back to Africa and didn't believe in racial equality. And I want to make it clear I am NOT condemning him for such sentiments. MANY folks of that age felt the same way. Everyone is a product of their time...just as will you and I be a century down the road! LOL

What I am saying though, is that, even if, which again is debatable, that Lincoln truly believed his own spurious arguments to justify invading the Southern states, which only wanted to go their own way in peace? Then he was also going against many if not most of the principles the nation was founded on. And again, if a Union has to be held together by force, it is no longer a true Union.

As a final tangental note. Ok, what if the South had succeeded in winning its independence? Just as the winners write the history on what did happen, they often write the projected history....as to what would have happened.

As it is, the Confederacy wanted to negotiate a defensive and economic alliance with the northern states. There is a good chance -- a great one in fact -- that the two nations may have reconciliated, reunited, and both been the better for it. Or, at worst, bethe closest of allies today...sharing an unguarded border as do we and Canada. I don't see how, in fact, it could have been any different...

But anyway, thanks!

But anyway,

You are probably right, I'm probably canonizing him a bit. But I do think he was an idealist. I think he was a man with a vision, not so much with regards to slavery because he was a man of his time, but he had a vision for this country. And when he felt that the country's future was threatened, he set aside his principles, his commitment to law, his very nature. I tend to think, in fact, that it was this division of his soul, these very personal sacrifices, that made him so very melancholy during his terms in office. I don't mean to minimize his personal losses, but I think he had a deep and abiding faith in the Constitution, and while he was in office he stripped that document, not permanently, but it was a price he was quite cognizant of. I think he mourned the Confederate soldiers as well as the Union soldiers, and that he was probably as aware of the irony of the Gettysburg Address as anyone.

[CatManDoo]

Would it be weird for a white person to fly the Chinese flag?

[elgusano]

I've seen white people with Japanese and Korean flags.

[elgusano]

Originally Posted by elgusano

Let me ask you a question: If half the people who bothered to show up for an election voted to require everyone in the USA to join and support the KKK, would that be A-OK with you?

I didn't see your answer to this question, so I thought I would bring it back up.

How about if they voted that everyone had to cut off their right hand? Or burn their houses down?

[CatManDoo]

Originally Posted by elgusano

I've seen white people with Japanese and Korean flags.

And you remember seeing it because it's weird. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, just that it IS kinda weird.

[Tom Lennox 70]

Originally Posted by CatManDoo

And you remember seeing it because it's weird. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, just that it IS kinda weird.

The thing is, my ethnic background is Chinese, but I was born in the U.S. and I'm an American. If your suggesting only whites are Americans and can adopt American traditions then frankly that's pretty offensive.

Again can't a minority person who grew up in the SOuth also have Southern pride and express it? I'm pretty sure there are people of all races in New YOrk and Boston who express Yankee pride.

[breeze823]

Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70

The thing is, my ethnic background is Chinese, but I was born in the U.S. and I'm an American. If your suggesting only whites are Americans and can adopt American traditions then frankly that's pretty offensive.

Again can't a minority person who grew up in the SOuth also have Southern pride and express it? I'm pretty sure there are people of all races in New YOrk and Boston who express Yankee pride.

Why are you getting so defensive? YOu asked the question if it would be weird, and it would kinda be weird. True, Americans are all colors, but it would still looke "weird" for a Chinese American to be all into the Confed Flag. But do it if you want to, just don't be suprised when people think it's weird!

And you seem really bent on dividing the north and south thing. The south isn't anymore American than the north.

[CatManDoo]

Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70

The thing is, my ethnic background is Chinese, but I was born in the U.S. and I'm an American. If your suggesting only whites are Americans and can adopt American traditions then frankly that's pretty offensive.

Again can't a minority person who grew up in the SOuth also have Southern pride and express it? I'm pretty sure there are people of all races in New YOrk and Boston who express Yankee pride.

First of all, an Asian flying a Confederate flag is unusal, if not "weird." As I said, there's nothing wrong with it, and a minority person can express whatever they wish. The original question wasn't whether it was acceptable or appropriate for a non-white to fly the Confederate flag, but rather would it be weird. I believe it would. As far as expressing Southern pride, of course a minority person who grew up there can do so; however, not everyone believes that flag represents Southern pride. Many believe it represents hatred and oppression of a minority. That's where the irony, and weirdness, comes from. IMHO, of course.