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Old 09-06-2013, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
One bizarre thing about the census ancestries is they don't appear add up to 100%. Maybe I'm missing something?
What if you claim more than one ancestry?
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:50 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,026,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
What if you claim more than one ancestry?
Then it should add up to more than 100%, it adds to less (67% for Maryland). Non-responses? If blacks and hispanics didn't respond, then it might make sense. No other category besides Sub-Saharan African makes sense, and only 0.9% of Americans chose that.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:56 PM
 
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For me, using the 36 30 line, the northern states are Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Delaware, Michigan, Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, District of Columbia, Illinois, Wisconsin, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa and Minnesota.
The southern states are Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:43 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbay33 View Post
Kansas City and Saint Louis are very midwestern, but have southern elements (BBQ, lots of african americans, significant amount of baptists, historic economic ties to some parts of the south) even Louisville, Cincinnati and yes even Pittsburgh have these elements due to being geographically close to the South
Pittsburgh is predominantly Catholic and is not known for BBQ. It's also about 200 miles north of the "sweet tea" line. Even its black population is smaller than most of its peer cities since its boom years occurred before the "Great Migration" of blacks and poor Appalachian whites from the South in the mid-20th Century. It has an ethnic European heritage that you don't find in Southern cities.

If you're judging Pittsburgh's proximity to "the South" based on its distance from the panhandle of West Virginia, then it's critical to note that the northern third of West Virginia is really not Southern. West Virginia is like Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri in that it straddles regions of the country. The southern third of West Virginia is part of the interior South, and the northern third is part of the interior Northeast, with the middle third being a transition between the two.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:31 PM
 
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For me the line is about I-64 east of the Mississippi. Parts of Illinois and Indiana are closer to Nashville than Chicago. Granted its more of a border south kind of region until you hit Nashville, but it is southern in culture. West of the Mississippi I would say that in Missouri only the area south of Springfield or the Bootheel is truly southern. Historically more of Missouri was southern leaning but this has faded out. I mean Kansas City and that area used to be more southern influenced (Jesse James was from this region, and Harry Truman was a member of the sons of Confederate Veterans, and there used to be hemp plantations in the region and it had quite a few slaves.) Anymore though Missouri isn't terribly southern at all. More redneck than southern.

As for Oklahoma and Texas, these states are more western south. They have some southern culture, but in a lot of cases they have adapted to more of a western or plains type culture (except for East Texas and southeast OK).
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:48 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,127,079 times
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Quote:
=greenbay33;33493433] As for Oklahoma and Texas, these states are more western south. They have some southern culture, but in a lot of cases they have adapted to more of a western or plains type culture (except for East Texas and southeast OK).
This (bolded part) is where I take issue (otherwise, not a bad post!). But anyway, while I certainly agree with you in that most of Texas and Oklahoma is "western South", where we part company a bit is that --with all due respect, and only IMHO -- is, in using "western" as the qualifier, it reads as to make for some confusion.

The term "western South" was first used by Raymond Gastil in his book "Cultural Regions of the United States', so as to -- rightly -- make a strong distinction -- both historically and culturally -- between the "Southwest" of New Mexico and Arizona, and the "Old Southwest" of Texas (and most of Oklahoma). Thus, the former were grouped within the larger West region and labeled a sub-region called "Interior Southwest". Whereas most of Texas and Oklahoma were classed as a sub-region of the larger South, known as "western South".

In a nutshell? Just because a majority of residents of all four states would agree they live in the "Southwest"...doesn't mean the pairs lived in the same Southwest, either historically or culturally. One pair is "western South", and the other is "southern West". The distinguishing feature being that the latter (NM and AZ), have little to nothing "Southern" about them.

And this is where -- from the opposite direction -- the source of my quibble with your own analysis comes into play (and again, this is intended to be a friendly and respectful and minor disagreement! ) To wit:

The Southern culture and history brought to west Texas came about honestly. It was overwhelmingly settlers from the eastern South that brought it. The history, the language, the general outlook and traditions, the church membership, and etc, etc. Now, you are correct in that this culture had to adapt to a more "plains/frontier" type environment...but that is where it becomes a "chicken or egg" type consideration...

In other words, the Southern history/culture was the solid foundation and when it arrived in west Texas after the War, there was no ethos of a "western" culture to compete with it...in the sense of that these new Southern settlers would somehow feel themselves "less Southern". No, what happened was the influences were totally environmental and began to separate West Texas from the southeast; where the foundation of the South, started to adopt a "frontier" type spirit, and definitely a new way of making a living and something different from that formerly characteristic of the Old South. It remained/remains Southern, but of a different character that that found in the Deep South.

Ok, I know I have rambled, I tend to do that! LOL
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:25 PM
 
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Even though the U.S. Census Bureau defines Maryland, Delaware, D.C., Virginia, West Virginia, and Kentucky as Southern states, I never really considered those states "Southern," at least from a geographic standpoint. IMO, they're a little too far north to be considered "southern."
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:32 AM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbay33 View Post
For me the line is about I-64 east of the Mississippi. Parts of Illinois and Indiana are closer to Nashville than Chicago. Granted its more of a border south kind of region until you hit Nashville, but it is southern in culture. West of the Mississippi I would say that in Missouri only the area south of Springfield or the Bootheel is truly southern. Historically more of Missouri was southern leaning but this has faded out. I mean Kansas City and that area used to be more southern influenced (Jesse James was from this region, and Harry Truman was a member of the sons of Confederate Veterans, and there used to be hemp plantations in the region and it had quite a few slaves.) Anymore though Missouri isn't terribly southern at all. More redneck than southern.

As for Oklahoma and Texas, these states are more western south. They have some southern culture, but in a lot of cases they have adapted to more of a western or plains type culture (except for East Texas and southeast OK).
I-64 is the best proxy among Interstates, but I still think U.S. 60 is the best proxy of all highways, at least west of Virginia. (In Virginia, just draw a line from Harrisonburg to Fredericksburg.) And in Texas and Oklahoma, I think "the South" is east of U.S. 75.
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:24 AM
 
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Texas is not a southern state. Since the 1970s.Texas has become a TRANSITIONAL state:ed
1. It was its own country which is an influence was also part of another country
2. Since 1980, the state has grown more than any other going from 12 million to 26 million people, equal to adding the state of Illinois. many from the west, the Rockies and Midwest
3. It is nearing, if not already, in terms of ethnicity, a majority-minority state. California is the only other state that has no group that is more than 50% of its population.
4. Texas is international because it has a 600 mile foreign border, longer than any state in the union. That is an ongoing influence.
5. Texas has industry, Energy, that really no southern state to the east has. This is impactful because it creates a manufacturing base no other has.
6. Texas leanings are much more western. Travel to California, Vegas, Colorada, NM and even Seattle occurs significantly more often.
7. Texas has rodeo and ranches...states to the east have farms and hoedowns.
8. Texas is more diverse religiously than states east - Methodists, Presbyterians and Catholics, etc, are more prevalent here whereas east of Louisiana, southern baptists rule. Catholics influence is strong here because of the Spanish conquistadors. The Alamo was a Spanish Mission.

Last edited by walker1962; 02-17-2014 at 05:40 AM.. Reason: adding factual data
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:10 PM
 
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*rubs hands together gleefully* Lets proceed!

Just out of curiosity, where do you live? Are you perhaps just jealous of Texas in that it was once --before any other -- referred to the "Empire State of the South" (1858).

But ok, that was a bit "over the line"...but I stand by the basic thrust. So to ask -- because it must proceed from the arguable premise -- just what states do you consider Southern..." And as a corollary? Which one -- if any -- are you from...?

Quote:
=walker1962;33507152]Texas is not a southern state. Since the 1970s.Texas has become a TRANSITIONAL state:ed
Let's start with this one -- as it incorporates some very relevant counter-replies to what you just wrote. That is (especially since you mention the 70's)?...here is one from Raymond Gastils ground-breaking book on "Cultural Regions of the United States" (which came out in the mid-late 70's)...

"Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest."

Also, how many states in the South -- as you consider them -- are not "becoming" transitional states"? List them and we can go over them one by one...

Quote:
1. It was its own country which is an influence was also part of another country
No offence intended, but THIS is truly HILARIOUS! LMAO At one time, EVERY state was part of "another country" of another country at one time! . What the heck do you think the Original 13 Colonies, were, if not part of of England?. Or Florida once was other than Spain, or a broad swath of middle America (including Louisiana and Arkansas, other than France?. Louisiana is particularly noteworthy...

And every other state was once a territory and belonged to another country, correct?

Quote:
2. Since 1980, the state has grown more than any other going from 12 million to 26 million people, equal to adding the state of Illinois. many from the west, the Rockies and Midwest
And? Even if that is true (which it isn't), then this "immigrant" wave is almost exclusively concentrated in large cities...which are actually anomalies when it is comes to the "Big Picture" of the whole history/culture, of Texas. I mean, one cannot use Atlanta, Georgia, or Charlotte, North Carolina, to get a true perspective on the essential character of the state....

3. It is nearing, if not already, in terms of ethnicity, a majority-minority state. California is the only other state that has no group that is more than 50% of its population. [/quote]

If the flow of illegal aliens is not stopped/controlled, this will be true of every state in the Union, not just those along the Mexican border...

Quote:
4. Texas is international because it has a 600 mile foreign border, longer than any state in the union. That is an ongoing influence.
See above. Most of this is concentrated in the very large urban areas, which don't reflect at all the basic history/culture of the state. For every Austin/Dallas/El Paso/ I can list, literally, a hundred smaller cities and towns, and especially little settlements, that have nothing in common with them and, further, don't want to have...

Quote:
[5. Texas has industry, Energy, that really no southern state to the east has. This is impactful because it creates a manufacturing base no other has.
Surely you jest! What states do you think (in addition to Texas) have the most oil/natural gas -- per capita -- concentrations?

Quote:
6. Texas leanings are much more western. Travel to California, Vegas, Colorada, NM and even Seattle occurs significantly more often.
Texas is both western and Southern. Kansas is both western and Midwestern. They don't contradict. Sooooo, please explain how California, Colorado, New Mexico, and Seattle, influenced Texas at all? Or does today?

Quote:
7. Texas has rodeo and ranches...states to the east have farms and hoedowns.
And Texas doesn't have the latter? Sure, Texas has "rodeos and ranches". Tennessee has mountain culture that differs completely from that found in south Alabama. And where do you think the prototype of the Texas cowboy came from? It was mainly from the cattle-drover of the Old South, not the Mexican vaquero...

As it is, for all the Hollywood mythology? The real commodity of Texas was cotton and farming, not ranching and cattle. It made for good movies, but not history.

8. Texas is more diverse religiously than states east - Methodists, Presbyterians and Catholics, etc, are more prevalent here whereas east of Louisiana, southern baptists rule. Catholics influence is strong here because of the Spanish conquistadors. [/quote]

It is interesting that you qualify by excluding Louisiana from the base. Convenient? But anyway...like illegal migrant patterns...the large Catholic membership in Texas today has to be put in its proper perspective. That is to say, such is almost exclusively the result of a large Mexican recent, immigrant population. Or some transplants from the northeast.

Otherwise? The overwhelming majority of native Texans -- the blacks and whites of which the duality made up the true shaping of the state -- are easily of Protestant denomination...with Southern Baptist making up the clear majority of that! LOL


Quote:
The Alamo was a Spanish Mission.
Yep, it was. LOL And those who defended it from the Mexicans, and later won the Texas Revolution, were overwhelmingly settlers from the southeastern United States who brought their culture with them, which was the primary shaping influence on Texas (42% of settlers in 1850 were from Tenessee, Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi, alone)...and that, in totality, 75% were from other states of the southeast. And that doesn't even count blacks from the southeast.

Do you for one second believe that other churches/landmarks/shrines/etc? in other Southern states didn't originally trace to another country...?

What I really get the impression of (and naturally and assuredly, I could very much be wrong) is that you are, either:

1. A Texan and/or newcomer to Texas that just doesn't want to consider yourself part of the South (which is fine if that is the way you really feel), or...

2. One from a state in the Southeast who adopts the baseless premise that the southeast is synonymous with "South".

Hey, just my take on it!
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