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Old 10-15-2008, 10:21 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,119,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjbradleynyc View Post
I'd split about 1/2 to 3/4 of Texas and include west Texas as the "west." Also, NM is not the "south" at all...Parts of OK could fit into the "west." I think the other parts of the map are mostly spot-on...except move most of southern MO into the midwest.
IMHO though, other than the El Paso area, very little of Texas has anything in common, either historically or culturally, with the true "western" states (i.e. Rocky Mountain and desert Southwest). However, there is this "Western" thing about Texas in popular mindset that is, I believe, mostly due to the influence of Hollywood, and does not tell the whole story when it comes to regional affiliation.

For one thing, there are at least two "Wests." One is that "Old West" of the post-bellum frontier, and it is not a region per se, but an era of history. That is, the time of cowboys and cattle drives and ranching and other icons made famous in the classic western movies. A goodly portion of Texas is very much part of that.

On the other hand though, so were states such as Kansas and Arizona and Montana which, other than sharing that particular era, Texas has very little in common with. Further, that particular frontier West of Texas legend is not, in essence, separate from "the South" From the Old South, or Deep South, or Southeast? Of course. But not from a basic historical and cultural connection with the entity known as The South. Anymore than this same "frontier West" era in Kansas separates that state from the larger Midwest.

For one thing, it was those settlers from states like Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, etc, that made up the vast majority of west Texas pioneer stock and became those cowboys and gunslingers and ranchers (in fact, the prototype of the anglo Texas cowboy was the Old South cattle drover, not the Mexican vaquero).

Far as that goes, most early Texans were not cowboys anyway (Lonesome Dove not withstanding! LOL). Most, as to be expected given their deeper South roots, were small famers and cotton was king. The gist of the matter is that it was this Southern stock which brought their culture into West Texas and simply transplanted it to a new and different environment, thus transforming into a unique sub-region of the larger South itself. That is, the "western South." Those settlers never thought of themselves as anything but Southerners, and in socio-culture surveys today, the majority of their decendents in west Texas today consider themselves to live in the South and be Southerners.

The other "West" is a true region, and consists of certain states in the far western part of the country which, like other U.S. regions, share commonalities of history, culture, politics, etc. And Texas -- with that trans-pecos exception -- is not part of it. While distinctions are often made between southeastern states and much of Texas, even broader differences exist when the comparisson is to states like Colorado or Utah or Arizona (undeniably western states today). Southern Baptist churches, Southern American English spoken, ante-bellum history, a true established "cotton culture", Confederate history...all of which exist extensively in Texas, are virtually unknown in the true West. Finally, to bring up again the surveys on regional identification, the vast majority of people in these mountain states, unlike in Texas, rightfully consider themselves to live in the West and be westerners.

Most of western Texas (and goodly parts of Oklahoma as well) is just a very different and independent sub-region of the "Greater South". It is the "western South." A place where the traditional South also contains many characteristics of the old frontier West. This is a whole different critter than being "Southwestern" or "Western" in the modern day sense.

Quote:
Bass & Catfish wrote on another post: As usual, you hit the nail on the head 'ol Friend. You are obviously very well read and have a mastery of regional history. I must say that I always learn something from your posts. Thank you.
Thank you in turn, buddy, for your words. I in turn always enjoying reading your own posts and almost always agreeing with the points you make and the way you make them!

Last edited by TexasReb; 10-15-2008 at 10:38 AM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 12:26 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
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Way too much of Missouri in there. Most of Southern Missouri is not the south, but rather a transition zone....and the northwest corner of Arkansas is also debatable. Southern Illinois and Southern Indiana are transition zones, they are not the true South. Oklahoma is debatable, I'm not sure I would call it truly Southern. I am more or less agreeable to Texas being Southern.
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Old 10-15-2008, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,749 posts, read 19,955,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
well...marshall, texas being the south isn't anymore of an opinion than saying jackson, mississippi is in the south. let's put it like that.

either way, i'm from texas, and there's no way somebody who isn't from here is going to be able to tell me about my own state. that may sound arrogant, but it makes sense, right? i don't know a thing about north dakota, and i would never pretend that i do.

but if someone has only lived in kentucky or virginia, and call themselves southern without even knowing what life is like in mississippi, georgia, or alabama (for example) i would laugh in their face. i'm not saying that's your case, missymom, but i don't know.
I never said Texas wasn't Southern. I said there are those who don't think it is. Where do you get your educated opinion?
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Old 10-15-2008, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
You seem to be repping TX (are you from the Houston area?)....which is awesome; I'm a Texan too. There would be many folks from Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia, however, that would tell you that you're not a southerner. As a proud Okie/Texan I wouldn't agree with them, of course, but just so you know many folks from the Deep South would not include Texas in their "true" (whatever that means, LOL) southern family.
My point exactly! Thank you again hun!
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Old 10-15-2008, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Portlandia "burbs"
10,234 posts, read 13,989,816 times
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Midwest is NOT "west". These states are "central". They are northcentral, midcentral, southcentral ~ they're central. Texas is NOT "southwest", as I've often heard it described. It's south, alright ~ but it's also smack-dab southcentral! (This is a pet peeve of mine.)

On your chart I think the northeast should lower down a little farther.
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:26 PM
 
1,763 posts, read 5,382,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
While I see your point to some extent, I have to disagree that the Great Plains are a true "region". Yes, there are physical similarities, but in terms of history and culture, these states are vastly different. The vast majority of Texas has little, if anything, other that certain topographical features, in common with any of the rest of those areas (save parts of Oklahoma).
Agreed, TR. I was looking at it mostly from a physical/topographical/geographic viewpoint, vs. historically or culturally. And although I sincerely believe that landscapes can have profound influences on a people, the historical/cultural influences cannot be understated.
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:34 PM
 
Location: The Magnolia City
8,931 posts, read 11,807,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missymomof3 View Post
I never said Texas wasn't Southern. I said there are those who don't think it is. Where do you get your educated opinion?
well, again, i wasn't talking about you. and my educated opinion comes from actually living in the south (texas and georgia)
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:37 PM
 
Location: The Magnolia City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missymomof3 View Post
My point exactly! Thank you again hun!
i wasn't necessarily disagreeing with either of you. what i was saying is that there is a certain point where opinions don't really count. not yours, but those from people who don't know what they're talking about.

as i said before, any opinion that would state that none of texas is southern would only come from a person who doesn't know.
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,749 posts, read 19,955,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
i wasn't necessarily disagreeing with either of you. what i was saying is that there is a certain point where opinions don't really count. not yours, but those from people who don't know what they're talking about.

as i said before, any opinion that would state that none of texas is southern would only come from a person who doesn't know.
What I am saying is, how do you know Kentucky isn't Southern? or Virginia? or West Virginia even?
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:28 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,230,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesbabe View Post
Midwest is NOT "west". These states are "central". They are northcentral, midcentral, southcentral ~ they're central. Texas is NOT "southwest", as I've often heard it described. It's south, alright ~ but it's also smack-dab southcentral! (This is a pet peeve of mine.)

On your chart I think the northeast should lower down a little farther.
I think this is an exceptional post..This is something that is all too often overlooked, and is hardly ever taken into account. Many people who consider Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, etc. as the "southwest" or "way out west" are from eastern states. So of course everything thats not conveniently juxtaposed to the east coast seems "out west" to someone who is IN the east/Southeast. Just like From Arizona's perspective Texas & Oklahoma are "over in the east"..But that doesnt make them an actual part of the southeast much less the east coast. It just means that they are east of Arizona.

So I would say that people should be more aware of the fact that Texas & Oklahoma sit squarely in the middle of the southern half of the U.S. map. That is, with the understanding that "Middle" usually implies central; not off to the west, not over in the east but central to all around it. They may not be central to the rest of the south, but then again neither are Georgia or SC -- but no one with sense would deny those two's southern statehood.

Ive always believed that most people choose to look at the U.S. map from east to west rather than west to east. So when surveying geographic relationships, states like Texas & Oklahoma appear to be waaayyy off to the west. When in reality its right in front of their eyes' but people tend to focus waaaayyyy off somewhere to the east, and so everything else becomes relative to that location...thats just my theory tho.

Last edited by solytaire; 10-15-2008 at 03:13 PM..
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