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Old 11-23-2008, 02:40 PM
 
3,219 posts, read 2,403,897 times
Reputation: 1492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bama! View Post
Definately agree in the "individualism" theory. There is so much separation in the country. We don't act like a tight community, more like the United States of Lunatics. But if we united a little more it might feel like "socialism" and thats a bad word in America.
Because countries and cultures that put the collective above the individual and actively discouraged individualism were/are never violent...

Just the Khmer Rouge, the Nazis, the Soviets, the Communist Chinese, street gangs, and cults.

If anything, collectivism has traditionally encouraged more violence and anti-social behavior. Oh, and if you try to cop out with some "what I mean is the kind of community you find in most of the world" I will still call bulls--t because many countries with much stronger social ties (Mexico, Venezula, the Philippines, Colombia, El Salvador, and so on) have far higher murder rates than the US.
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Old 11-23-2008, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
821 posts, read 157,813 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
Because countries and cultures that put the collective above the individual and actively discouraged individualism were/are never violent...

Just the Khmer Rouge, the Nazis, the Soviets, the Communist Chinese, street gangs, and cults.

If anything, collectivism has traditionally encouraged more violence and anti-social behavior. Oh, and if you try to cop out with some "what I mean is the kind of community you find in most of the world" I will still call bulls--t because many countries with much stronger social ties (Mexico, Venezula, the Philippines, Colombia, El Salvador, and so on) have far higher murder rates than the US.
So tell me, why does the US have the highest murder rate out of any world power/ developed nation/ democratic nation? You apparently are so sure about what the reasons are not.
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Dorchester
2,602 posts, read 2,825,586 times
Reputation: 1053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bama! View Post
So tell me, why does the US have the highest murder rate out of any world power/ developed nation/ democratic nation? You apparently are so sure about what the reasons are not.
The question should be:
Why are so many people killing each other in our inner cities?
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
821 posts, read 157,813 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomDot View Post
The question should be:
Why are so many people killing each other in our inner cities?
and? are you answering the question with another question?
Obviously thats cause there are more people.
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:45 PM
 
3,219 posts, read 2,403,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bama! View Post
So tell me, why does the US have the highest murder rate out of any world power/ developed nation/ democratic nation? You apparently are so sure about what the reasons are not.
It's a number of economic, demographic, and cultural factors that cannot be tied to one single cause.

Also in high violent crime areas (the South and the ghettos) have an honor and macho culture. Honor culture defined by your reputation (specifically your manliness and toughness) and your willingness to defend that reputation, preferably with violence. Macho culture is slightly different in that it is also based on disrespecting and mistreating those who are weaker than you and doing so makes you more manly and macho. Extreme cases macho culture are found in prisons and in various gangs.

The honor culture has its foundations in Africa and Scotland. The northern US was mostly settled by farmers from England, Holland, and Germany. The South was mostly settled by herdersmen from Scotland. Keep in mind that Scotland at that time was more similar to a frontier than it is now, also the fact that the Scots and Scots-Irish were often herders is also significant since herders had to be more aggressive than farmers to protect what they have and since the government was often inefficient or corrupt, you were expected to settle disputes and deal with theft by yourself or with your clan. The African element was brought by slaves who came from nomadic herding cultures (similar to the Scots) and from warrior tradition, for obvious reasons it mostly stayed within the black community.

This is the main reason why Southern whites have a higher homicide rate than non-Southern whites in the US, especially over trivial matters. You are more likely to be murdered over a petty argument in the South than in the north. Also, this partial explains the South's reputation for being polite; New Yorkers regularly curse each other out and it is usually not taken personally, but in the South, it would likely cause a much bigger (and possibily violent) fight because it would be a direct affront on someone's honor. Look at the South's history of duelling, someone would insult or even offend someone and then the offended party would challenge the other to a duel.

Surveys have shown that although white Southerners and black Americans do not endorse violence any more than northern whites, they are more likely to consider violence or the threat of violence more acceptable when your reputation, honor, or your manliness are challenged.

It is the best explanation for the reason why the South, black ghettos (which have a primarily Southern culture), and barrios (which are influenced by Latin American honor cultures) have a much higher murder rates than other areas of the nation (which have murder rates much more comparable to Europe).
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:57 PM
 
1,435 posts, read 2,567,968 times
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Quote:
So tell me, why does the US have the highest murder rate out of any world power/ developed nation/ democratic nation?
Because the U.S is the only world power/developed nation on the planet that has almost 40 million Black people. So ofcourse we are going to have a higher murder rate than lily White 1st world countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Australia, etc which have very few Blacks.
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:58 PM
 
317 posts, read 574,118 times
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I, frankly, am sick and tired of hearing people constantly bash the U.S. I don't see mass immigrations to any other country. So, obviously, we're doing something right. Maybe people - including fellow citizens of America - should start focusing on what's GOOD about this nation instead of how horrible our society is.
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Old 11-23-2008, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Axarquía, Andalucía, Spain
2,945 posts, read 4,856,404 times
Reputation: 1668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
It's a number of economic, demographic, and cultural factors that cannot be tied to one single cause.

Also in high violent crime areas (the South and the ghettos) have an honor and macho culture. Honor culture defined by your reputation (specifically your manliness and toughness) and your willingness to defend that reputation, preferably with violence. Macho culture is slightly different in that it is also based on disrespecting and mistreating those who are weaker than you and doing so makes you more manly and macho. Extreme cases macho culture are found in prisons and in various gangs.

The honor culture has its foundations in Africa and Scotland. The northern US was mostly settled by farmers from England, Holland, and Germany. The South was mostly settled by herdersmen from Scotland. Keep in mind that Scotland at that time was more similar to a frontier than it is now, also the fact that the Scots and Scots-Irish were often herders is also significant since herders had to be more aggressive than farmers to protect what they have and since the government was often inefficient or corrupt, you were expected to settle disputes and deal with theft by yourself or with your clan. The African element was brought by slaves who came from nomadic herding cultures (similar to the Scots) and from warrior tradition, for obvious reasons it mostly stayed within the black community.

This is the main reason why Southern whites have a higher homicide rate than non-Southern whites in the US, especially over trivial matters. You are more likely to be murdered over a petty argument in the South than in the north. Also, this partial explains the South's reputation for being polite; New Yorkers regularly curse each other out and it is usually not taken personally, but in the South, it would likely cause a much bigger (and possibily violent) fight because it would be a direct affront on someone's honor. Look at the South's history of duelling, someone would insult or even offend someone and then the offended party would challenge the other to a duel.

Surveys have shown that although white Southerners and black Americans do not endorse violence any more than northern whites, they are more likely to consider violence or the threat of violence more acceptable when your reputation, honor, or your manliness are challenged.

It is the best explanation for the reason why the South, black ghettos (which have a primarily Southern culture), and barrios (which are influenced by Latin American honor cultures) have a much higher murder rates than other areas of the nation (which have murder rates much more comparable to Europe).

That is a good post. Did Scots mostly just move to the south though? People there are very different to us Scots here if you know what i mean.
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Old 11-23-2008, 04:35 PM
 
3,219 posts, read 2,403,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotslass View Post
That is a good post. Did Scots mostly just move to the south though? People there are very different to us Scots here if you know what i mean.
The people that moved to the South were mostly Scots and some English from the border country, the South also had a lot of poor people from English cities as well. Moreso than the north. So the South was basically settled by Scottish herders and poor Englishmen. Not exactly representive of the UK and it lead to the South adopting many traits from those subcultures (not exactly a subculture, but more of a regional culture), plus the American colonies were frontier in the truest sense as well. Moving a bunch of herdsmen to an environment where their mentality would be an asset merely cemented what was already there.

Another way to compare it is to compare Italians to Southerners. The Italians that immigrated to the US were mostly southern Italians, who also had an honor culture due to isolation, repeated invasions, weak government, and a large herdsmen population. They imported the Mafia and the concept of vendetta. It has been several generations and vendatta has pretty much lost its meaning and the Mafia is much smaller and weaker than it used to be. However, imagine if those same southern Italians formed their very own nation or region where they easily made up the majority. Do you think it that those traditions would have died out as quickly?

Why they moved to the South has a lot to due with how the colonies were run during the earliest days and who they attracted and who they let in.

Also, remember that the South has only had a lot immigrants move to it only recently. Most cities in the South didn't have the same influx of Jews, Germans, Dutch, Catholic Irish, Italians, and other Europeans that all added their own traditons and quirks to American culture. Southern culture is more "intact" than WASP culture.
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Old 11-23-2008, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Dorchester
2,602 posts, read 2,825,586 times
Reputation: 1053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bama! View Post
and? are you answering the question with another question?
Obviously thats cause there are more people.
I grew up in town that had a density of 9,000 people/mile square. The crime rate was very low.
Therefore, when someone asks why America is so violent. My answer is that it isn't.
Inner cities are. In Boston, where I live, if you removed an approximately 4 square mile area out. Boston would go from having 52 murders in 2008 to 3 murders. And one of those was a murder/suicide. That four square mile area is the inner city neighborhoods.
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