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Old 01-24-2009, 10:42 AM
 
208 posts, read 540,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
It is worth noting that between 1900 and WW2 a HUGE migration of Southerners came into the northern states, both black and white. Do we say that New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois etc. are no longer northern states?

No instead we just generally except the fact that the North adapted and changed - and our culture was generally enriched.
Good point. Even some of my relatives from southwestern VA migrated to Indiana during that time period. Many even moved back south after they were financially able. In cities like Cleveland, OH, "Little Appalachias" sprung up because a majority if the residents were from the Appalachian parts of WV, KY, and PA. In Chicago, many southern whites and blacks migrated there. The large migration north pretty much stopped in the 1960's.

However, the numbers that migrated north to south have been much greater and it is still continuing. It's slowing down however, especially in Florida.
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:57 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,137 posts, read 9,913,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceTheo View Post
Technically if you look at a map, Virginia is in the middle of the East Coast. To prove that, Richmond is closer to Boston than it is to Jacksonville, Fl. Alexandria Va is further north in latitude than San Francisco. From Alexandria, one can drive to Long Island in less than 5 hrs.

Culturally, much of Virginia is southern but it is also transient at the same time. One can't reference back to the past 100 years or the Mason-Dixon line because a lot of people who live in Virginia do not quite fit this "Steel Magnolias" stereotype now. Culture changes with the times as you have indicated.
I agree with some of what you are saying and I am actually divided in some of my thoughts on this subject lol. But in answer to some of your points:
1. Virginia was the orginial Southern colony (in contrast to New England) and 400 years later I assume we agree the state has not moved.
2. Who says the "Steel Magnolias" type has to be the only legimate southern culture? For instance is not the Cajun/French culture now accepted as part of the South?
3. If we accept the fact that the broader Southern culture already has at least one subculture (Cajun) why not accept that it has many - Texas, Upper South, Deep South white, black etc. And the combination of all of them is the True South.

We do not see the North or the West saying this area is no longer part of us because some of the population changed. I am not a Southerner and the subject is academic to me but I really believe the South is selling it self short.
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:58 AM
 
208 posts, read 540,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
I agree that transitions from the north to the south occur in the states you mentioned, but it's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. Kansas in the southern half of the state is where the transition from the Northern Plains to the Southern Plains occurs. In Missouri, the Southern half of the state is a transition zone between the Midwest and the South. The Northern half, including St. Louis, Columbia, and Kansas City, is undeniably Midwestern. In Kentucky, the northern half of the state (above Louisville and Lexington) transitions from the south to the Midwest. West Virginia is mostly Southern with the northern half beginning to transition to Northern Appalachia/Northeast. Maryland and Delaware are mostly Northeastern. So I think using this logic one could throw Kansas, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware in with the Northern states and Kentucky and West Virginia in with the Southern states.
Wow you know your stuff!

I agree especially with those states in transition (KY and WV). As someone who travels to those states frequently, I agree. To me, KY and WV are some of the most interesting states because of the transitions occuring.

Just to add, there are Appalachian influences in western Maryland too, but not enough to make Maryland an Appalachian state.
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Old 01-24-2009, 11:27 AM
 
1,193 posts, read 1,561,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I agree with some of what you are saying and I am actually divided in some of my thoughts on this subject lol. But in answer to some of your points:
1. Virginia was the orginial Southern colony (in contrast to New England) and 400 years later I assume we agree the state has not moved.
2. Who says the "Steel Magnolias" type has to be the only legimate southern culture? For instance is not the Cajun/French culture now accepted as part of the South?
3. If we accept the fact that the broader Southern culture already has at least one subculture (Cajun) why not accept that it has many - Texas, Upper South, Deep South white, black etc. And the combination of all of them is the True South.

We do not see the North or the West saying this area is no longer part of us because some of the population changed. I am not a Southerner and the subject is academic to me but I really believe the South is selling it self short.
I see your logic and yes Virginia was a southern colony in the original 13. But you can't ignore the culture of today. If you notice, back then New York was considered a Mid-Atlantic state although it bordered Canada. By today's standards that classification would be absurd because the country had grown out south and west disproportionally. As an aside, southeastern Virginia does share some historical similarities with New England which even reflects to this day. Example? Place names like Norfolk, Middlesex, Essex, Gloucester to name a few.
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Old 01-24-2009, 12:00 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,137 posts, read 9,913,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceTheo View Post
I see your logic and yes Virginia was a southern colony in the original 13. But you can't ignore the culture of today. If you notice, back then New York was considered a Mid-Atlantic state although it bordered Canada. By today's standards that classification would be absurd because the country had grown out south and west disproportionally. As an aside, southeastern Virginia does share some historical similarities with New England which even reflects to this day. Example? Place names like Norfolk, Middlesex, Essex, Gloucester to name a few.
Wow you just raised a couple of different points that I find interesting. I will take care of the "culture" thing first because its more on topic and then the "name" thing in a second post.

"But you can't ignore the culture of today"
But what exactly is the culture of today? If you think Virginia is now a northern culture how did it turn into a northern one and when? And if you say it is "Mid-atlantic" what the hell is mid atlantic culture in the first place LOL! And when did it become a Mid Atlantic culture instead of a Southern one?

I must admit to me Virginia seems to be sort of Southern lite or "Upper South". Just one part of the broader Southern culture.

I wonder how people in Virginia, Kentucky and Texas etc. feel about this.
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Old 01-24-2009, 12:13 PM
 
3,596 posts, read 7,708,562 times
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I tend to think of "The north" as New England plus the Great Lakes states. From Boston to Chicago.

I tend to think of the South as everything south of that, where accents grow strange and the square grid disappears entirely.
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Old 01-24-2009, 12:23 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,121,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I wonder how people in Virginia, Kentucky and Texas etc. feel about this.
LOL Well, I will just re-post something I wrote earlier:

Broadly speaking, my own definition -- in terms of a purely North/South dichotomy and in whole states (which is not always easy to do) geography-history-culture -- when I speak of "The South"?

I mean the 11 Old Confederate States, plus Kentucky and Oklahoma and West Virginia. Those states north of Oklahoma, the Ohio River and Virginia are what I usually mean when I say "the North". That is, the Midwest and Northeast. I might add that Missouri is especially hard in this regard...

The "West" are those states of the Rocky Mountains, Pacific Coast, and Interior Southwest (i.e. Arizona and New Mexico).

Missouri is the one I have a hard time with. AJ is adament that it is overwhelmingly Midwestern. And I agree. Hell, his points leave me no other choice! LOL

Oklahoma is another. Perhaps because it wasn't a state at the time of the WBTS, it is difficult in some realms to consider it "Southern." BUT...notwithstanding that the Indian Territory of the time allied with the Confederacy...what is the alternative? It is certainly not "western" as to be classified with the Rocky Mountain or Interior SW states. And it isn't Midwestern as to be grouped with Kansas, Nebraska, etc. Culturally, Oklahoma, as a whole, is essentially Southern. Certainly not "Southern" as in Mississippi. Not really, even like Texas. BUT...Southern in most ways. Sorta like West Virginia. Much more Southern than not...if that makes sense.

This is only personal experience of course, but in all my travels thru Oklahoma, I have found the general attitudes, speech, etc, much more like Texas and Arkansas than I have with Kansas....
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Old 01-24-2009, 12:25 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,137 posts, read 9,913,467 times
Reputation: 6424
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceTheo View Post
I see your logic and yes Virginia was a southern colony in the original 13. But you can't ignore the culture of today. If you notice, back then New York was considered a Mid-Atlantic state although it bordered Canada. By today's standards that classification would be absurd because the country had grown out south and west disproportionally. As an aside, southeastern Virginia does share some historical similarities with New England which even reflects to this day. Example? Place names like Norfolk, Middlesex, Essex, Gloucester to name a few.
"If you notice, back then New York was considered a Mid-Atlantic state although it bordered Canada". New York at first was part of the New Netherlands and then for a few years part of New England. Only after Pennsylvania was established (late 1600s) did the term Middle Colonies really take off. I do agree with you the modern term "Mid Atlantic" is kind of strange for NY. Especially if your in the Adirondacks about an hour from Montreal or in Niagara Falls looking across the river into Canada!

"As an aside, southeastern Virginia does share some historical similarities with New England which even reflects to this day. Example? Place names like Norfolk, Middlesex, Essex, Gloucester".

Bothare areas that the English orginially settled but gradually changed over generations. Virginia has a few unique things that you do not see in most parts of the Northeast. For instance streams and small rivers in Virginia (and Maryland) are often called Runs. Virginia (and again Maryland) also has a couple of counties directly named after specific Royal persons like King William, King George, Prince William, Caroline and Prince George (in contrast NY has Kings, Queens and Dutchess but no names).

Just a few differences that help make an area unique and colorful.
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Old 01-24-2009, 12:41 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,137 posts, read 9,913,467 times
Reputation: 6424
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
LOL Well, I will just re-post something I wrote earlier:

Broadly speaking, my own definition -- in terms of a purely North/South dichotomy and in whole states (which is not always easy to do) geography-history-culture -- when I speak of "The South"?

I mean the 11 Old Confederate States, plus Kentucky and Oklahoma and West Virginia. Those states north of Oklahoma, the Ohio River and Virginia are what I usually mean when I say "the North". That is, the Midwest and Northeast. I might add that Missouri is especially hard in this regard...

The "West" are those states of the Rocky Mountains, Pacific Coast, and Interior Southwest (i.e. Arizona and New Mexico).

Missouri is the one I have a hard time with. AJ is adament that it is overwhelmingly Midwestern. And I agree. Hell, his points leave me no other choice! LOL

Oklahoma is another. Perhaps because it wasn't a state at the time of the WBTS, it is difficult in some realms to consider it "Southern." BUT...notwithstanding that the Indian Territory of the time allied with the Confederacy...what is the alternative? It is certainly not "western" as to be classified with the Rocky Mountain or Interior SW states. And it isn't Midwestern as to be grouped with Kansas, Nebraska, etc. Culturally, Oklahoma, as a whole, is essentially Southern. Certainly not "Southern" as in Mississippi. Not really, even like Texas. BUT...Southern in most ways. Sorta like West Virginia. Much more Southern than not...if that makes sense.

This is only personal experience of course, but in all my travels thru Oklahoma, I have found the general attitudes, speech, etc, much more like Texas and Arkansas than I have with Kansas....
From what I know - which is limited (I have no idea how people in Oklahoma or Missouri feel for instance) I would totally agree with your entire statement LOL.

You made alot of good points. I highlighted some of them.
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:53 PM
 
1,193 posts, read 1,561,173 times
Reputation: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
"If you notice, back then New York was considered a Mid-Atlantic state although it bordered Canada". New York at first was part of the New Netherlands and then for a few years part of New England. Only after Pennsylvania was established (late 1600s) did the term Middle Colonies really take off. I do agree with you the modern term "Mid Atlantic" is kind of strange for NY. Especially if your in the Adirondacks about an hour from Montreal or in Niagara Falls looking across the river into Canada!

"As an aside, southeastern Virginia does share some historical similarities with New England which even reflects to this day. Example? Place names like Norfolk, Middlesex, Essex, Gloucester".

Bothare areas that the English orginially settled but gradually changed over generations. Virginia has a few unique things that you do not see in most parts of the Northeast. For instance streams and small rivers in Virginia (and Maryland) are often called Runs. Virginia (and again Maryland) also has a couple of counties directly named after specific Royal persons like King William, King George, Prince William, Caroline and Prince George (in contrast NY has Kings, Queens and Dutchess but no names).

Just a few differences that help make an area unique and colorful.
Indeed. The interesting thing about Maryland and Virginia in regards to whether or not they are southern all depends on who you ask (the natives that is). Some claim South and others don't. I was just trying to show the ambiguity.
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