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View Poll Results: Which was the best Gotham City?
New York City 62 44.60%
Chicago 62 44.60%
Both were equally good 14 10.07%
I'd like to see my city as the next Gotham City 6 4.32%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2009, 12:12 PM
 
11,172 posts, read 22,381,444 times
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I'm sure this can just go back and forth and back and forth. In the end, New York was the inspiration for Gotham City, but I think when it's said and done, Chicago can emulate the physical aspects of the city in better ways than NYC. There's no right or wrong, Gotham City is Gotham City....it doesn't actually exist anywhere. There are things in Gotham City that are just made up and put together to work with the story line - which is what's really important.

I found this on MSNBC:

Neal Adams, who has illustrated Batman for DC Comics since the 1970s, says he's always thought of Chicago, with its 1940s mobster history and miles of dark alleys, as the basis for Gotham City.
Moderator cut: remainder of copyrighted article

Last edited by Bo; 01-22-2009 at 07:14 AM.. Reason: Copyrighted Material - Post no more than 2 sentences and a link, per the TOS.
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Old 01-21-2009, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia,New Jersey, NYC!
6,967 posts, read 18,215,169 times
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i'm gonna go with chicago on this!

nyc is more of a spider-man city anyway (i may have voted already lol)
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:03 PM
 
784 posts, read 2,050,651 times
Reputation: 559
The artist for the comics in the 60s and 70s said he always considered it to be Chicago, specifically mentioning.

Let's not get confused, just one artist said this. He is NOT the originator of Gotham.

The truth is that there is no singular Gotham City because it borrows elements from different cities.

Wrong. Gotham is based entirely on New York. The only reason they didn't call it New York is so that other people could relate there city to it. Such as the case here.


As far as the question of the thread, I voted for Chicago because I thought it was shown in a better way. Nolan portrayed Gotham in a more relatable manner than Burton, and more realistically than Schumacher. Plus, Chicago has a more notorious history and reputation of corrupt politicions, gangsters, and mobsters. Al Capone is still the most infamous mobster domestically and internationally. In fact, Capone is pretty analogous to Carmine Falcone. Visually I also agree that Gotham needs to have the dark alleys in which both criminals and Batman operate.

Burton wrote the movie Batman in the eighties. Movies have come a long way since then. You've had twenty years to improve on the darkness of a city within a movie context. As far as Chicago having a more "notorious history". Thats a matter of opinion. Most people know that there have been many more Maffia families by far in New York than ever in Chicago. When I personally think of Maffia, I think of the New York maffia. However, having Maffia families in a city has little if nothing to do with Batman.

As far as Al Capone being the most infamous mobster domestically and internationally. If your talking about very early twentieth century, then yes I'll agree. As far as the last seventy or eighty years, New York has clearly taken that title. It is very little suprise that Nolan who lived in Chicago, chose Chicago. As far as there being more goth architecture in Chicago. Simply false. And who has the best goth architecture is once again a matter of opinion. As far as dark alleys. Who ever said that Batman has to have dark alleys for there to be a fight scene? The current director, or one director thirty years ago? Who cares what they think? Once again, they are not the originator of Batman or Gotham.

Like I've already stated in other posts concerning this. It is the original writer of Batman who's opinion on what Gotham is counts. Without him and his vision and fortitude, there is no Gotham. He clearly states that it is NY. He got the idea from NY. He drew his inspiration from NY. Heck, he even got the name "Gotham" from the NYC phone book. Sorry, but Chicago just doesn't fit into the equation. This debate would not even be up for debate if this one film wasn't filmed in Chicago. Now because of it, Chicago people think that they can just erase all of the years where everyone knew that Gotham was New York and vica versa. Talk about the nerve of some people. I dont care how many of you argue on here about this. For the last time Chicago is not Gotham. New York is, deal with it.

Let's put it this way, for simple understanding. The creator of Nike dies. His brother in law takes over and now says to everyone who has ever owned a pair of Nike's to now call them "Chomps". History is unimportant, because he always felt that "Chomps" was a more appropriate name. He envisions the Swoosh Logo "chomping Up" so thats what he now envisions and thinks they should be called. Now are we all just supposed to ignore the fact that we know Nike's to be Nike's or do we just take HIS word now, (since the originator is gone and cannot voice his opinion otherwise) and now call them Chomps? Would you be willing to disregard all of those years of history and say, ok, what the hel $, we'll now call them chomps, because he say's so? This is apparently what many of you are doing. If this type of llogic holds true,then I ask, what is the point of having history?

Last edited by SlickRick1; 01-21-2009 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:57 PM
 
58 posts, read 181,971 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRick1 View Post
Let's not get confused, just one artist said this. He is NOT the originator of Gotham.

Wrong. Gotham is based entirely on New York. The only reason they didn't call it New York is so that other people could relate there city to it. Such as the case here.
An artist for the Batman comics says it and it doesn't matter? Why does only the originator matter to you? Tons of Batman places, characters, plotlines, etc. are added, changed, and evolved over time and eventually become part of the Batman mythology. The originator doesn't "own" the conception of Gotham because our conceptions are formulated by the history of artists and authors over time. In fact, Batman isn't even the only comic series that exists in Gotham.

Quote:
Burton wrote the movie Batman in the eighties. Movies have come a long way since then. You've had twenty years to improve on the darkness of a city within a movie context.
Where did I say anything about darkness? Burton's movies were plenty dark. What does that have to do with anything? This doesn't even matter since Burton didn't make Gotham as New York. Burton's movies used a clashing blend of Soviet architecture, Art Deco, German expressionism, and Art Nouveau. His Gotham wasn't meant to be like any city that actually exists.

Quote:
As far as Chicago having a more "notorious history". Thats a matter of opinion. Most people know that there have been many more Maffia families by far in New York than ever in Chicago. When I personally think of Maffia, I think of the New York maffia. However, having Maffia families in a city has little if nothing to do with Batman.
What value does "more mafia families" have? It's about control and corruption. Chicago's well known for having been basically run by the mob. New York doesn't have that same history and notoriety for that level of corruption.

If you think that the mafia has nothing to do with the Batman storyline in Gotham, then I'm going to guess that you don't really know all that much about the Batman story other than a few movies.

[quote]As far as Al Capone being the most infamous mobster domestically and internationally. If your talking about very early twentieth century, then yes I'll agree. As far as the last seventy or eighty years, New York has clearly taken that title.[/qoute]

"Clearly taken that title"?!? What are you talking about? It's one think to be biased toward a side, it's a whole nother to just completely detach yourself from reality. What mobster anywhere in the world is as infamous as Al Capone? The most infamous New York mobster is probably John Gotti, and there's no way a sane person can say that he's more famous than Capone.

Quote:
It is very little suprise that Nolan who lived in Chicago, chose Chicago. As far as there being more goth architecture in Chicago. Simply false. And who has the best goth architecture is once again a matter of opinion.
I don't know much about the frequency of Gothic arcitecture of the two cities, and I'm willing to bet an apendage that you don't either. But continue to talk out of your ass if you like.

Quote:
As far as dark alleys. Who ever said that Batman has to have dark alleys for there to be a fight scene? The current director, or one director thirty years ago? Who cares what they think? Once again, they are not the originator of Batman or Gotham.
It wasn't Nolan who said that, it was Neal Adams, a former Batman comic artist.

Quote:
Like I've already stated in other posts concerning this. It is the original writer of Batman who's opinion on what Gotham is counts. Without him and his vision and fortitude, there is no Gotham. He clearly states that it is NY. He got the idea from NY. He drew his inspiration from NY. Heck, he even got the name "Gotham" from the NYC phone book. Sorry, but Chicago just doesn't fit into the equation. This debate would not even be up for debate if this one film wasn't filmed in Chicago. Now because of it, Chicago people think that they can just erase all of the years where everyone knew that Gotham was New York and vica versa. Talk about the nerve of some people. I dont care how many of you argue on here about this. For the last time Chicago is not Gotham. New York is, deal with it.
The question would come up because the comic versions of Gotham from the 70s onward have taken Chicago as a bigger inspiration than New York. Whose erasing decades of history now?

Quote:
Let's put it this way, for simple understanding. The creator of Nike dies. His brother in law takes over and now says to everyone who has ever owned a pair of Nike's to now call them "Chomps". History is unimportant, because he always felt that "Chomps" was a more appropriate name. He envisions the Swoosh Logo "chomping Up" so thats what he now envisions and thinks they should be called. Now are we all just supposed to ignore the fact that we know Nike's to be Nike's or do we just take HIS word now, (since the originator is gone and cannot voice his opinion otherwise) and now call them Chomps? Would you be willing to disregard all of those years of history and say, ok, what the hel $, we'll now call them chomps, because he say's so? This is apparently what many of you are doing. If this type of llogic holds true,then I ask, what is the point of having history?
That's not really an apt analogy because shoes are tangible objects that have set, reproduced characteristics. Gotham is an abstract conception of a fictional place. However, even in your analogy, you seem to miss the point. You wouldn't start calling your old Nike shoes Chomps. But you would call the shoes that are made in the future chomps. Thirty years after the name change, you wouldn't still call new shoes Nikes would you?

As an example (for simple understanding ), McDonald's was created by the McDonald's brothers as a single restaurant in California. Ray Kroc eventually took control of the company, forced out the McDonald's brothers, and completely changed the business practices and headquarters. Even though now it's nothing like how the originators wanted, it's still McDonald's right?
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:00 PM
 
58 posts, read 181,971 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by domino View Post
Is this argument worth the bandwidth?
Because everything else we chat about on here is sooooo important.
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,567,384 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixKick View Post
Why does only the originator matter to you?
Michelangelo created the Sistine Chapel as an image of Christianity; but I feel it is just as legitimate to take the Dali Lama's take on it.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:12 AM
 
58 posts, read 181,971 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
Michelangelo created the Sistine Chapel as an image of Christianity; but I feel it is just as legitimate to take the Dali Lama's take on it.
Ovid created Pyramus and Thisbe, yet Shakespeare's version (Romeo and Juliet) seems to be the more popular take.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:39 AM
 
Location: West Hollywood
2,223 posts, read 4,136,478 times
Reputation: 1767
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRick1 View Post
The artist for the comics in the 60s and 70s said he always considered it to be Chicago, specifically mentioning.

Let's not get confused, just one artist said this. He is NOT the originator of Gotham.

The truth is that there is no singular Gotham City because it borrows elements from different cities.

Wrong. Gotham is based entirely on New York. The only reason they didn't call it New York is so that other people could relate there city to it. Such as the case here.


As far as the question of the thread, I voted for Chicago because I thought it was shown in a better way. Nolan portrayed Gotham in a more relatable manner than Burton, and more realistically than Schumacher. Plus, Chicago has a more notorious history and reputation of corrupt politicions, gangsters, and mobsters. Al Capone is still the most infamous mobster domestically and internationally. In fact, Capone is pretty analogous to Carmine Falcone. Visually I also agree that Gotham needs to have the dark alleys in which both criminals and Batman operate.

Burton wrote the movie Batman in the eighties. Movies have come a long way since then. You've had twenty years to improve on the darkness of a city within a movie context. As far as Chicago having a more "notorious history". Thats a matter of opinion. Most people know that there have been many more Maffia families by far in New York than ever in Chicago. When I personally think of Maffia, I think of the New York maffia. However, having Maffia families in a city has little if nothing to do with Batman.

As far as Al Capone being the most infamous mobster domestically and internationally. If your talking about very early twentieth century, then yes I'll agree. As far as the last seventy or eighty years, New York has clearly taken that title. It is very little suprise that Nolan who lived in Chicago, chose Chicago. As far as there being more goth architecture in Chicago. Simply false. And who has the best goth architecture is once again a matter of opinion. As far as dark alleys. Who ever said that Batman has to have dark alleys for there to be a fight scene? The current director, or one director thirty years ago? Who cares what they think? Once again, they are not the originator of Batman or Gotham.

Like I've already stated in other posts concerning this. It is the original writer of Batman who's opinion on what Gotham is counts. Without him and his vision and fortitude, there is no Gotham. He clearly states that it is NY. He got the idea from NY. He drew his inspiration from NY. Heck, he even got the name "Gotham" from the NYC phone book. Sorry, but Chicago just doesn't fit into the equation. This debate would not even be up for debate if this one film wasn't filmed in Chicago. Now because of it, Chicago people think that they can just erase all of the years where everyone knew that Gotham was New York and vica versa. Talk about the nerve of some people. I dont care how many of you argue on here about this. For the last time Chicago is not Gotham. New York is, deal with it.

Let's put it this way, for simple understanding. The creator of Nike dies. His brother in law takes over and now says to everyone who has ever owned a pair of Nike's to now call them "Chomps". History is unimportant, because he always felt that "Chomps" was a more appropriate name. He envisions the Swoosh Logo "chomping Up" so thats what he now envisions and thinks they should be called. Now are we all just supposed to ignore the fact that we know Nike's to be Nike's or do we just take HIS word now, (since the originator is gone and cannot voice his opinion otherwise) and now call them Chomps? Would you be willing to disregard all of those years of history and say, ok, what the hel $, we'll now call them chomps, because he say's so? This is apparently what many of you are doing. If this type of llogic holds true,then I ask, what is the point of having history?
Take a deep breath. It's okay...relax.

Why are you so worked up over this? Not everyone is going to agree with you.

Like I said before, feel free to remake the Dark Knight in New York.

I have never heard anyone complain about something like this like you are doing.
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:32 AM
 
784 posts, read 2,050,651 times
Reputation: 559
[quote=SixKick;7111875]An artist for the Batman comics says it and it doesn't matter? Why does only the originator matter to you? Tons of Batman places, characters, plotlines, etc. are added, changed, and evolved over time and eventually become part of the Batman mythology. The originator doesn't "own" the conception of Gotham because our conceptions are formulated by the history of artists and authors over time. In fact, Batman isn't even the only comic series that exists in Gotham.

Where did I say anything about darkness? Burton's movies were plenty dark. What does that have to do with anything? This doesn't even matter since Burton didn't make Gotham as New York. Burton's movies used a clashing blend of Soviet architecture, Art Deco, German expressionism, and Art Nouveau. His Gotham wasn't meant to be like any city that actually exists.

What value does "more mafia families" have? It's about control and corruption. Chicago's well known for having been basically run by the mob. New York doesn't have that same history and notoriety for that level of corruption.

If you think that the mafia has nothing to do with the Batman storyline in Gotham, then I'm going to guess that you don't really know all that much about the Batman story other than a few movies.

Quote:
As far as Al Capone being the most infamous mobster domestically and internationally. If your talking about very early twentieth century, then yes I'll agree. As far as the last seventy or eighty years, New York has clearly taken that title.[/qoute]

"Clearly taken that title"?!? What are you talking about? It's one think to be biased toward a side, it's a whole nother to just completely detach yourself from reality. What mobster anywhere in the world is as infamous as Al Capone? The most infamous New York mobster is probably John Gotti, and there's no way a sane person can say that he's more famous than Capone.

I don't know much about the frequency of Gothic arcitecture of the two cities, and I'm willing to bet an apendage that you don't either. But continue to talk out of your ass if you like.

It wasn't Nolan who said that, it was Neal Adams, a former Batman comic artist.

The question would come up because the comic versions of Gotham from the 70s onward have taken Chicago as a bigger inspiration than New York. Whose erasing decades of history now?

That's not really an apt analogy because shoes are tangible objects that have set, reproduced characteristics. Gotham is an abstract conception of a fictional place. However, even in your analogy, you seem to miss the point. You wouldn't start calling your old Nike shoes Chomps. But you would call the shoes that are made in the future chomps. Thirty years after the name change, you wouldn't still call new shoes Nikes would you?

As an example (for simple understanding ), McDonald's was created by the McDonald's brothers as a single restaurant in California. Ray Kroc eventually took control of the company, forced out the McDonald's brothers, and completely changed the business practices and headquarters. Even though now it's nothing like how the originators wanted, it's still McDonald's right?
Your funny,

Your right, Chicago is the best...Heck, we'll give it the home to every comic book hero. Forget that Gotham is NY and vica versa. Forget that there would not be a "Gotham" without NY.

By the way,
I like how you tell me what I do and don't know. I'll call you up next time I wish to conjure up a thought, ok?

And by the way, I love how you just so pasionately disregard the originator. Oh, I don't know why the originator's opinion is important. Maybe because without him, we wouldn't even be having this silly argument. Get over yourself. NY is Gotham. They can use Chicago for all of the rest of the Batman movies, NY will still be Gotham...

By the way, God forbid if they ever decide to shoot Superman or Spiderman in Chicago. We'll never hear the end of it..

Last edited by SlickRick1; 01-22-2009 at 07:54 AM..
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,567,384 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixKick View Post
Ovid created Pyramus and Thisbe, yet Shakespeare's version (Romeo and Juliet) seems to be the more popular take.
Ad populum?
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