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Old 11-08-2009, 02:01 AM
 
Location: Southeast Missouri
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While St. Louis is more Catholic, and southern Missouri is more Baptist, I don't think that has anything to do with whether it is southern or not.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:14 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconJ View Post
Then Louisiana isn't southern?
Louisiana is largely Catholic, but it's about 18% Southern Baptist. That might be more than any non-Southern state.

Southern Baptist Convention statistics

Louisiana is also more Evangelical Protestant than average.

U.S. Religion Map and Religious Populations - U.S. Religious Landscape Study - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Indiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, and West Virginia seem to be the only non-Southern states to have a higher percentage of Evangelical Protestants. However of those only Indiana is inarguably not Southern. Much of West Virginia and Southern Missouri wanted to be in the Confederacy. Oklahoma was largely settled by Southerners so is something of a Southern colony.

Anyway I think of the Ozarks as being somewhat Appalachian. Maybe not geographically, but many of its settlers were Appalachian.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:12 PM
 
Location: IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STLCardsBlues1989 View Post
While St. Louis is more Catholic, and southern Missouri is more Baptist, I don't think that has anything to do with whether it is southern or not.
I disagree somewhat. Northern Missouri is known as Little Dixie and is overwhelmingly Baptist. Once you cross into Iowa the influence diminishes substantially. Missouri is one of the few states where the metros are Catholic while nearly all the rural areas are Baptist. It is a mixed state in terms of religious affiliation, but overwhelmingly Baptist when you look at the geographic distribution alone.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:15 PM
 
Location: IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Anyway I think of the Ozarks as being somewhat Appalachian. Maybe not geographically, but many of its settlers were Appalachian.
New England is also in the Appalachian topographic belt. I was traveling through rural areas of Enfield and Grafton, NH today and it might as well have been West Virginia in terms of the very steep roads, dense forest cover, completely dilapidated housing stock in many areas along 4A, and old junk strewn out in the yards.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:51 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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You got me there. I was thinking more "Southern Appalachia" I guess, probably nothing further North than a few counties in Pennsylvania.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:59 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Louisiana is largely Catholic, but it's about 18% Southern Baptist. That might be more than any non-Southern state.

Southern Baptist Convention statistics

Louisiana is also more Evangelical Protestant than average.

U.S. Religion Map and Religious Populations - U.S. Religious Landscape Study - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Indiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, and West Virginia seem to be the only non-Southern states to have a higher percentage of Evangelical Protestants. However of those only Indiana is inarguably not Southern. Much of West Virginia and Southern Missouri wanted to be in the Confederacy. Oklahoma was largely settled by Southerners so is something of a Southern colony.

Anyway I think of the Ozarks as being somewhat Appalachian. Maybe not geographically, but many of its settlers were Appalachian.
>>>>>
Oklahoma was largely settled by Southerners so is something of a Southern colony.
<<<<<

Very true.

However, it is probably a misnomer to refer to Oklahoma as a "non-Southern state," especially in line with Missouri and Indiana which are quintessentially Midwestern.

Oklahoma has Southern culture (speech patterns, food, music, hobbies, etc.), vast majority of people (as you noted, Southern transplants and Native Americans) fought for the Confederacy during the War of Northern Agression, is dominated by Southern Baptists (2nd per capita to Alabama or Mississippi?), lies below the Mason-Dixon, listed within the Census Bureau's West South Central region of the Greater South, etc.

Calling Oklahoma a Southern colony is fair. Calling it a "non-Southern" state is nonsensical given the reasons I listed above. It is far from being the Deep South (AL, MS, SC, GA, LA), but OK is certainly part of the South at large. Often times it seems people pull OK's Southern status because of its lack of official statehood (as Indian Territory) at the time of the Civil War when everything else about it is historically (and in the contemporary sense) overtly Southern.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
Oklahoma has Southern culture (speech patterns, food, music, hobbies, etc.), vast majority of people (as you noted, Southern transplants and Native Americans) fought for the Confederacy during the War of Northern Agression, is dominated by Southern Baptists (2nd per capita to Alabama or Mississippi?), lies below the Mason-Dixon, listed within the Census Bureau's West South Central region of the Greater South, etc.
actually the mason-dixon line is simply the border between maryland and Pennsylvania, it doesnt lie anywhere near Oklahoma. During the age of Indian removal, Indians from the southeast were move to oklahoma, because it was a slaveholding region, and some partially white indians who were moved owned slaves. northern indians were moved to kansas.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
Calling Oklahoma a Southern colony is fair. Calling it a "non-Southern" state is nonsensical given the reasons I listed above. It is far from being the Deep South (AL, MS, SC, GA, LA), but OK is certainly part of the South at large. Often times it seems people pull OK's Southern status because of its lack of official statehood (as Indian Territory) at the time of the Civil War when everything else about it is historically (and in the contemporary sense) overtly Southern.
at the time most of southern culture was forming, Oklahoma wasnt settled much. the only question is, did it recieve more settlers from a southern background or from a midwestern background. that i dont know. i'll leave that distinction up to its residents.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:10 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
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Originally Posted by JimmyJohnWilson View Post
actually the mason-dixon line is simply the border between maryland and Pennsylvania, it doesnt lie anywhere near Oklahoma. During the age of Indian removal, Indians from the southeast were move to oklahoma, because it was a slaveholding region, and some partially white indians who were moved owned slaves. northern indians were moved to kansas.





at the time most of southern culture was forming, Oklahoma wasnt settled much. the only question is, did it recieve more settlers from a southern background or from a midwestern background. that i dont know. i'll leave that distinction up to its residents.
Thanks for the map. That's very helpful to see the migration of the Native Americans (some of which were my ancestors Creek and Choctaw) to Indian Territory.

Also, as you allude to, my understanding is that the Mason-Dixon was never meant to be some sort of dividing line between North and South, but in the vast majority of people's minds it unofficially became such......which leads me to go by the following map: Mason Dixon Line

As for Oklahoma having more of a Midwestern or Southern background it is obvious that we had a primary influx of Southerners. The culture today leans heavily towards commonality with Southern culture, not the Midwest. With the exception of Alabama, I have been to every Southern state as well as many Midwestern states and Oklahoma shares much more in common with Southern states than true/obvious Midwestern states like Michigan, Indiana, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, etc.

With the exception of the inclusion of Delware and Maryland, this Census map pretty much hits cultural regions right on the head: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ce..._Divisions.PNG. Hence, Oklahoma is rightly included in the South at large....perhaps Oklahoma and Texas (maybe Arkansas too as it is very far west and technically not in the Southeast) should be referred to what my good friend TexReb calls the "Western South." I prefer "South-Central" as a regional designation or my personal favorite the "Cowboy South" = it appears my fellow Oklahomans and I are kinda a more rowdy version of our genteel/refined brothers and sisters from the Southeast. Okies are just fine bein' a little more Redneck than others. ;-)

Last edited by Bass&Catfish2008; 11-11-2009 at 11:28 PM..
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:37 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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I wasn't think of Oklahoma as a mix of Southern and Midwestern, but as Southern and Southwestern. It has many of the elements: A large/historic Indian population, association with "The West", and wasn't a state during the Civil War.

If Oklahomans insist Oklahoma is Southern, rather than just associational, okay but I admit it's probably nothing I'll actually believe. And I have been to Oklahoma plus knew several Oklahomans. It's relational to the South sure, but it just doesn't fit "as the South" to me.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:03 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,412 posts, read 7,704,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I wasn't think of Oklahoma as a mix of Southern and Midwestern, but as Southern and Southwestern. It has many of the elements: A large/historic Indian population, association with "The West", and wasn't a state during the Civil War.

If Oklahomans insist Oklahoma is Southern, rather than just associational, okay but I admit it's probably nothing I'll actually believe. And I have been to Oklahoma plus knew several Oklahomans. It's relational to the South sure, but it just doesn't fit "as the South" to me.
Fair enough; and, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I absolutely agree with you that Oklahoma is primarily an infusion of Southern and Southwestern culture....but Oklahoma (and for that matter Texas) must be understood as quite distinct from obvious Southwestern states such as New Mexico and Arizona. Oklahoma and Texas are decidely much more Southern. Oklahoma has to be included in some region and Southern culture predominates the state...hence, it must be included in the South at large. I think this is primarily why the Census puts Oklahoma in the same subregion of the South with Texas, Louisiana, and Arkansas and not in the Greater Southwest.

I understand there are many Southern purists that repudiate this idea. As an aside, when I was in Nashville for a spell, I once heard an Alabaman tell a Tennessean to his face that he was not Southern....and he was serious! LOL!

But again, my assertion is that Oklahoma's Southern status would not be remotely questioned if it actually was a state during the Civil War as the vast majority of the inhabitants of Indian Territory fought for the Confederacy. Heck, the last stand made by a Confederate General was fought on Oklahoma soil:

"In 1864 Watie was in command of the Indian Cavalry Brigade. The Brigade was composed of the First and Second Cherokee Cavalry, the Creek Squadron, the Osage Battalion, and the Seminole Battalion. Headquarted south of the Canadian River Watie sent squads to raid and plunder the Federal details around Fort Gibson. On June 10, 1864, his forces captured the stern wheeler 'J.P. Williams' laden with supplies and goods worth approximently 1.5 million dollars. He was promoted to Brigidier General. On September 19, 1864 his forces were victorious at the second battle of Cabin Creek. General Stand Watie was the last Confederate General to surrender after the Civil War at Doaksville, Indian Territory on June 23 1865."
Indian Territory:Civil War
Indian Territory: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Historically and culturally Oklahoma has the chops for inclusion in the South at large, which again the Census rightly designates. It is not the Deep South by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly lies in the Greater South, the far-most western edge of the South. Therefore, to say that Oklahoma does not belong in the South is only in the mind of so-called "Purists." Each to his own, but such views are not grounded in fact but opinion and speculation.
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