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Old 01-05-2009, 08:47 PM
 
56,778 posts, read 81,126,018 times
Reputation: 12563

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Quote:
Originally Posted by creepsinc View Post
Knoxville is more of a metropolis than Pittsburgh? Chattanooga too? You're either Appalachian or you're not. They're small Appalachian cities, Word's Fairs notwithstanding. Pittsburgh is the only Appalachian metropolis. I stand by that.
i said what I said due to Pittsburgh having other influences too, where the other two are squarely in the heart of Appalachia. While there is that influence in the Pittsburgh area, I wouldn't say it is completely rooted in Appalachia like the other two.
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,571,344 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
But wait a minute, you used Pgh's Italian and Jewish populations to bolster your argument that Pgh is NE'n (BTW, I agree, but not using your logic--lots of Italians and Jews in Chicago and Cleveland, also!)
First of all, I didn't say: Pittsburgh has a lot of Italians and Jews, therefore Pittsburgh is the Northeast. I did say that Pittsburgh has a lot of Italians, Jews, row houses, narrow horse and buggy paved streets, extreme structual density, over 50% Catholic, our conversion from industry to edu.,and tech., self-perception of natives, etc. The point is that I declared Pittsburgh the Northeast on the basis of: Demographics, political boundaries, architecture, structure, religious trends, economics trends, vibe and self-perception; not demographics alone.
Additionally, every city in the country has a lot of blacks therefore I see no reason to pick out a few cities and say they have a Southern influence. Also, it's being suggested that blacks are part of southern culture (regardless of where they are born) and therefore influence the city's culture in a southern way (should we then say these cities have a Scottish influence since black Gospel and praise church woship was ultimately influenced by the Scots? My citing of high Italian populations as evidence (or similarity) of the Northeast is not one of influence rather demographic trends. The Northeast has, by far, the largest % of Italians in the country--the white demographic feature that defines the Northeast.
Now for the next point...Chicago's Italian population % is nothing near that of the Northeast (it may not even be above average), where NYC metro is 15%, Pittsburgh CSA 16%, Providence may even be around 18%. Cleveland on the other hand does have a large Italian and Jewish population with 9% Italian in the metro. Given this obvious demographic influence, it's possible that Cleveland and the rest of Northeast Ohio should be noted as having Northeastern influences...something I've admitted to already.

I don't think my logic is off.

Last edited by ainulinale; 01-05-2009 at 09:40 PM..
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:47 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 33,456,424 times
Reputation: 2661
Default This Dog don't hunt

Thinking more about the overall project I cannot help but reach the conclusion that this dog don't hunt.

We simply lack any rational or organized taxonomy to make it work.

We are trying to get to a Thomastic essence without nearly the right set of terms.

We are applying a pandora's box of factors to the problem without the structure to support it.

Perhaps we need a first level set of descriptors to be followed with others at the second and third level.

New England
New York
DC
South Atlantic
South
Florida
California
North West
Soth West
Great Plains
Texas
Great Plains
Great Lakes
Northern midwest
Southern midwest
Fly over country..

Probably not great but maybe it contains some of the flavors I am reaching for.

So Cal and its cities is unique and consistent and unlike anywhere else.

Las Vegas is much more SW than CA...even though it is the easter suburb of LA

SLC is like no where else. Mountain mormon maybe.

The rust belt city are strikinly similar...Cleveland, Erie, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Scranton, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee,

Plop you down in a neighborhood in one and you can't tell which one you are in.

This is hard stuff but we do not have a good start...just a random opinion.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,571,344 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
Thinking more about the overall project I cannot help but reach the conclusion that this dog don't hunt.

We simply lack any rational or organized taxonomy to make it work.

We are trying to get to a Thomastic essence without nearly the right set of terms.

We are applying a pandora's box of factors to the problem without the structure to support it.

Perhaps we need a first level set of descriptors to be followed with others at the second and third level.

New England
New York
DC
South Atlantic
South
Florida
California
North West
Soth West
Great Plains
Texas
Great Plains
Great Lakes
Northern midwest
Southern midwest
Fly over country..

Probably not great but maybe it contains some of the flavors I am reaching for.
I provided second descriptors (e.g. Midwest, Great Lakes or South, Atlantic). I also used Texas and Southern California etc. to further hint at the greater uniqueness of each area.

I sympathize with your struggles here, but I think that most of us have a grasp of what characterizes each particular region. If this is so, then determining what terms best describe a city is rather simple. We may not all agree on what is meant by the term "Northeast", but I think most of us can agree that the Northeast is dense and old. Now this sounds a little bit like circular reasoning as one looks at the Northeast for it's characteristics, then categorizes what the Northeast is based on those characteristics.

The solution as I see it is to either define Northeast, South, Midwest and West purely on state boundaries...but, this is boring and misses the commonalities that unite particular areas which may also spread beyond such state boundaries. The other option is to pick out a city that epitomizes each area, examine its characteristics, then use such characteristics as defining features for that area (now of course there is still a bit of self-defining here). However, we can tell these general characteristics we find in our "epitomizing" cities because they tend to be prevalent in certain areas and tend to be absent in every other area. Thus, we look at New York for example and find that it is very dense with many of its structures connected. When we look at Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Washington DC we find the same situation. Yet, when we look at cities a bit further away like Cleveland, Charlotte; or even cities much further away like Atlanta, Dallas, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, Portland, we find that such cities do not share this characteristic--thus, they do not reflect the Northeast in this way. When we add up all these general characteristics, we can come to a common sense conclusion of what city belongs in what area--what area is any particular city most closely related.

Thus, I think city character is more of a sliding scale, but that doesn't mean we can't make accurate generalizations about them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by olecapt View Post
The rust belt city are strikinly similar...Cleveland, Erie, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Scranton, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee,


Plop you down in a neighborhood in one and you can't tell which one you are in.

Now although you made a good point on the last part, this I have to nail you on....Have you ever been to these cities? The architecture in Pittsburgh is nothing like that in Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc.

This is typical in Pittsburgh:




This is typical in Cleveland:


Last edited by ainulinale; 01-06-2009 at 12:26 AM..
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:46 AM
 
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,085 posts, read 11,461,799 times
Reputation: 1947
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
First of all, I didn't say: Pittsburgh has a lot of Italians and Jews, therefore Pittsburgh is the Northeast. I did say that Pittsburgh has a lot of Italians, Jews, row houses, narrow horse and buggy paved streets, extreme structual density, over 50% Catholic, our conversion from industry to edu.,and tech., self-perception of natives, etc. The point is that I declared Pittsburgh the Northeast on the basis of: Demographics, political boundaries, architecture, structure, religious trends, economics trends, vibe and self-perception; not demographics alone.
Additionally, every city in the country has a lot of blacks therefore I see no reason to pick out a few cities and say they have a Southern influence. Also, it's being suggested that blacks are part of southern culture (regardless of where they are born) and therefore influence the city's culture in a southern way (should we then say these cities have a Scottish influence since black Gospel and praise church woship was ultimately influenced by the Scots? My citing of high Italian populations as evidence (or similarity) of the Northeast is not one of influence rather demographic trends. The Northeast has, by far, the largest % of Italians in the country--the white demographic feature that defines the Northeast.
Now for the next point...Chicago's Italian population % is nothing near that of the Northeast (it may not even be above average), where NYC metro is 15%, Pittsburgh CSA 16%, Providence may even be around 18%. Cleveland on the other hand does have a large Italian and Jewish population with 9% Italian in the metro. Given this obvious demographic influence, it's possible that Cleveland and the rest of Northeast Ohio should be noted as having Northeastern influences...something I've admitted to already.

I don't think my logic is off.
Well, it is. That's a load of BS. It is not being suggested; that is what YOU are reading into it. No one said that. Not every city in the country has an equal amount or a lot of blacks. Blacks have greatly influenced the culture in some cities and not others due to all the factors you mentioned above. You assume that everyone else is basing it on demographics alone. I agreed with Spade because I knew about the history of blacks in Chicago and what they contributed to the culture there. Same with L.A., to a lesser extent. Anyone who doesn't place Houston in the Gulf Coast has no idea what he's talking about. But why bother listing the ways the city is "Gulf Coast," or how the founding of the city had an impact on the city's culture today? You seem very proud of your little taxonomy and want to disagree with anyone who disagrees with you.

ckhthankgod, while Houston has a Nigerian community, the city as a whole cannot be said to have Nigerian influence or presence that has filtered through and affected the culture of the city. Not yet. Give it a couple more generations and maybe...
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
34,711 posts, read 33,740,349 times
Reputation: 51977
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
I've made up a list of my approximations of the characters of some major U.S. cities. I based my conclusions on: architecture, city structure/layout, demographics, topography, political regions, politics, self-identification, economic trends (both historic and current), and vibe. Obviously there will be disagreement as I certainly don't know everything there is to know about each city. Thus, what do you agree with and disagree with and why? My categorization is as follows:

Boston: East Coast/New England
NYC: East Coast/Mid-Atlantic
Philadelphia: East Coast/Mid-Atlantic
Baltimore: East Coast with Southern Influences
DC: East Coast with Southern Influences
Pittsburgh: Appalachia and East Coast with Midwestern influences
Cleveland: Midwest/Great Lakes
Columbus: Midwest with Appalachian influences
Cincinnati: Midwest with Southern and East Coast influences
Detroit: Midwest/Great Lakes
Indianapolis: Midwest
Chicago: Midwest/Great Lakes with East Coast influences
Milwaukee: Midwest/Great Lakes
St. Louis: Midwest with Southern and East Coast influences
Kansas City: Midwest with Great Plains influences
Minneapolis: Midwest
Charlotte: South Atlantic
Atlanta: South Atlantic
Miami: Caribbean and Southern
Birmingham: South/Deep
New Orleans: Cajun Gulf Coast and Southern
Houston: South/Texas
Dallas: South/Texas with Great Plains and Western influences
Denver: West/Inter-Mountain with Great Plains influences
Phoenix: West/Southwest
Las Vegas: West/Southwest with West Coast influences
San Diego: West Coast/Southern California
Los Angeles: West Coast/Southern California
San Francisco: West Coast/Northern California
Portland: West Coast/Pacific Northwest
Seattle: West Coast/Pacific Northwest

I'm curious, what Southern influences are in Baltimore?
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,564,061 times
Reputation: 10490
The other problem here, aside from the previously stated hints that it doesn't work, is the fact that this isn't a categorization of cities at all. It's a reinvention of regions, listing the (proposed) major city in each. If there is any other kind of categorization going on, then I confess right here in public that I completely missed it.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,571,344 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by houstoner View Post
Well, it is. That's a load of BS.
At least I don't post idiotic things like Houston being Northeastern, (apparently that too was based on architecture, demographics, structure, political boundaries, religious trends, economic trends, vibe, self-perception, etc.) which someone still hasn't explained.

Last edited by ainulinale; 01-06-2009 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:07 PM
 
Location: ITP
2,133 posts, read 5,624,230 times
Reputation: 1347
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
First of all, I didn't say: Pittsburgh has a lot of Italians and Jews, therefore Pittsburgh is the Northeast. I did say that Pittsburgh has a lot of Italians, Jews, row houses, narrow horse and buggy paved streets, extreme structual density, over 50% Catholic, our conversion from industry to edu.,and tech., self-perception of natives, etc. The point is that I declared Pittsburgh the Northeast on the basis of: Demographics, political boundaries, architecture, structure, religious trends, economics trends, vibe and self-perception; not demographics alone.
Additionally, every city in the country has a lot of blacks therefore I see no reason to pick out a few cities and say they have a Southern influence. Also, it's being suggested that blacks are part of southern culture (regardless of where they are born) and therefore influence the city's culture in a southern way (should we then say these cities have a Scottish influence since black Gospel and praise church woship was ultimately influenced by the Scots? My citing of high Italian populations as evidence (or similarity) of the Northeast is not one of influence rather demographic trends. The Northeast has, by far, the largest % of Italians in the country--the white demographic feature that defines the Northeast.
Now for the next point...Chicago's Italian population % is nothing near that of the Northeast (it may not even be above average), where NYC metro is 15%, Pittsburgh CSA 16%, Providence may even be around 18%. Cleveland on the other hand does have a large Italian and Jewish population with 9% Italian in the metro. Given this obvious demographic influence, it's possible that Cleveland and the rest of Northeast Ohio should be noted as having Northeastern influences...something I've admitted to already.

I don't think my logic is off.
Come on man! Kenosha, WI and Rockford, IL both have large Italian communities--as does San Francisco and New Orleans. Would you consider these cities to be Northeastern as well?
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,571,344 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by houstoner View Post
It is not being suggested; that is what YOU are reading into it.
So you aren't suggesting that black bring southern culture with them?
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