if Rust Belt has been hurting for so long, then why are so many people still there (loan, home)

[CortlandGirl79]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I'm not sure which cities you are referring to. Phoenix is everyone's idea of a "monster" city, yet if you go there, and take time to get to know it, it's not like what the media portrays it, any more than the rust-belt cities are. ALL cities were once vacant land. This included the rust-belt cities. It's just that some of them haven't grown much in 50 years. What you see in Phoenix now was going on in the rust belt cities 100 years ago, e.g land being developed. The building methods of the past were in some cases MORE destructive than today's.



I think Chicago had a more diverse economy from the start, which helped.



Those are stats you can look up. The latest census bureau numbers that were released early this month showed Michigan and one other state (can't remember which now) losing population. Pittsburgh's metro continues to lose population, regardless of the reasons. The argument that sunbelt cities are constantly annexing land to their cities is not entirely true. Denver is essentially prevented from annexing any more land, and has been since 1976. Yet its population continues to grow. The Phoneix area consists of many suburban cities, e.g. Mesa, Scottsdale, etc. Just a couple of examples.

I was just saying that i dont' like brand new shiny cities. I prefer old ones that have the kind of character that i prefer.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by Duderino

I think we should take a step back here. I probably should not have added the "to sustain life" part, because I can see how some are taking issue with that wording.

First off, I'm as "guilty" (even though I hate using that wording) as everyone when it comes to consumption -- so I'm not trying to put off any pretenses of being more "consumer conscious" than the next person.

Still, in the context of this argument -- that is, one about development and suburban sprawl -- consumption is something that is much less under one person's control (like deciding to use the internet or buying an iPod). Land consumption is on a much larger scale that deals with political policy and executive planning. Thus, it is something of which everyone needs to be mindful to make sure it is in check. Again, by no means did I mean to come off as though we should dictate consumption based only on what "sustains life," but the concept of sustainability is something our society needs to consider.

fair enough and well said, it was the wording that people were jumping on but when you explain it this way it makes more sense and you're not coming off as a hypocrite. I do agree with you about your views on land consumption, I don't not like that "McMansion" mentality either. I generally prefer less govt rather than more but I make some exceptions when it comes to land use/development mainly b/c of what I know and what I do. But hopefully market forces such as high gas prices and the need for lower cost homes, adn therefor smaller homes, will encourage less of the development pattern we've seen over the past 50+ years and more smart, denser type developments. I'm kind of glad coastal CA has run out of room for more new development b/c it will force up to grow up and not out anymore.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

I was just saying that i dont' like brand new shiny cities. I prefer old ones that have the kind of character that i prefer.

And I was saying, I don't know of any "brand new shiny cities", even in the west. Most western cities have their newer areas, and more of the metro area of western cities is new, but all these places we have been talking about have long histories.

[CortlandGirl79]

Originally Posted by Akhenaton06

Let's not forget that one time the Rust Belt cities were the boomtowns, full of transplants and new construction. It's all a cycle. One day the growth in the Sunbelt will slow down, the new stuff will become old and gain character, charm, and grit. I enjoy the Rust Belt cities for their mature built environments, and I enjoy the Sunbelt cities because I can see their potential being fulfilled right before my eyes.

That's all well and good, but i wasn't alive back when my area was booming, let's say 1850-1960. I'm not sure i would have wanted to live here when this area was a boom town. It was crowded and dirty from industry.....i prefer the cleaner air and shrunk down population that we have now. Sure i would like to see some people come back and some new people move in, but i wouldn't want a mass migration to this area........that would be a nightmare!

[CortlandGirl79]

Originally Posted by Katiana

And I was saying, I don't know of any "brand new shiny cities", even in the west. Most western cities have their newer areas, and more of the metro area of western cities is new, but all these places we have been talking about have long histories.

Well, i guess we are misunderstanding each other then, because i'm not talking about the west......i'm talking about the "new" southern towns that everyone is moving to. I'm not saying that these cities are brand new cities, i'm just saying that have a lot of new building going on. I would even consider Columbus to be one of these cities, but not on the scale of cities like Charlotte, etc.

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by Katiana

And I was saying, I don't know of any "brand new shiny cities", even in the west.

Too many people see shiny skyscrapers either in photos, on the internet, in movies, on tv, or driving by on the highway and make an assumption that a city is either:

1. brand new
2. has no character
3. lacks culture
4. any of a hundred other typical stereotypes

People definitely should know better than to take the media image of rust belt cities at face value. The media portrays people and places in certain ways to make them seem more interesting and dramatic so the report will draw attention...so we shouldn't draw conclusions about any city based anything other than personal experience - and that includes rust belt cities, "shiny new" cities, old cities, big cities, small cities, poor cities, prosperous cities, etc.

It's just as wrong from one perspective as it is from another.

[Awesomo.2000]

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

Well, i guess we are misunderstanding each other then, because i'm not talking about the west......i'm talking about the "new" southern towns that everyone is moving to. I'm not saying that these cities are brand new cities, i'm just saying that have a lot of new building going on. I would even consider Columbus to be one of these cities, but not on the scale of cities like Charlotte, etc.

I know what you are saying. I go to Charlotte a lot for work. Charlotte has its historic sections, but they are very small. The old section of Charlotte is nothing compared to the city of Pittsburgh. Most of the inner city of Charlotte feels like the suburbs of Pittsburgh. You don't have Lawerenceville, south side, Shadyside neighborhoods in the south. Many of those neighborhoods are newer and are similair to what is found in our suburbs. I myself like the old urban neighborhoods of the N.E. and would not want to live in a neighborhood that resembles a 90s suburb.

To each their own.

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by Awesomo.2000

I know what you are saying. I go to Charlotte a lot for work. Charlotte has its historic sections, but they are very small. The old section of Charlotte is nothing compared to the city of Pittsburgh. Most of the inner city of Charlotte feels like the suburbs of Pittsburgh. You don't have Lawerenceville, south side, Shadyside neighborhoods in the south. Many of those neighborhoods are newer and are similair to what is found in our suburbs. I myself like the old urban neighborhoods of the N.E. and would not want to live in a neighborhood that resembles a 90s suburb.

To each their own.

It sounds like you're comparing the inner city of Charlotte to the in-town neighborhoods of Pittsburgh - not quite a fair comparison. To properly compare two cities you have to compare similar areas...downtown/cbd to downtown/cbd, inner-city neighborhood to inner-city neighborhood, suburb to suburb, etc. Of course Charlotte doesn't have the exact neighborhood make-up of Pittsburgh and it doesn't have Shadyside or Lawrenceville, and Charlotte doesn't have the historic fabric and architecture of Pittsburgh - in 1900 Charlotte was city of barely 20,00 people. But Charlotte does have plenty of interesting in-town neighborhoods; obviously they aren't identical to Pittsburghs, and if they were the discussion topic would be "Why did Charlotte copy Pittsburgh?" Every city should be unique, and if it isn't 100 years old it can still be interesting.

A sampling of some of Charlotte's neighborhoods that are obviously NOT at all similar to Pittsburgh's suburbs:

Plaza-Midwood, just east of Uptown...established as a streetcar suburb in 1910:

File:Plaza-Midwood.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Plaza-Midwood, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2843305437/ - broken link)


Plaza-Midwood, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2844143176/ - broken link)


2-24-2007 046 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cthrn_holt/458105400/ - broken link)


2-24-2007 047 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cthrn_holt/458105392/ - broken link)


South End, late 1800s neighborhood immediately south of Uptown:

Historic South End Charlotte Light Rail 5 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12208406@N03/3017360740/in/set-72157608796910025/ - broken link)


Historic South End Charlotte Park Ave 2 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12208406@N03/3016528717/in/set-72157608796910025/ - broken link)


Historic South End Charlotte Park Ave on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12208406@N03/3017361004/in/set-72157608796910025/ - broken link)


Historic South End Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12208406@N03/3016526751/in/set-72157608796910025/ - broken link)


Charlotte's Southend on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2543367677/ - broken link)


Uptown Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cosmophotos/544686352/ - broken link)


Southend, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2845947869/ - broken link)


Elizabeth, east side neighborhood from 1902 that is currently being revitalized:

Charlotte Upper Elizabeth Streetcar Construction 3 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12208406@N03/3017350584/in/set-72157608796910025/ - broken link)


Dixie's Tavern on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2750404447/in/photostream/ - broken link)


Elizabeth from 7th Street Station on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2750404593/ - broken link)


Dilworth, another former streetcar suburb adjacent to Uptown on the south side...from the 1890s:

Dilworth Streetcar Suburb 2 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12208406@N03/3017352900/ - broken link)



IMG_1744 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/teddyacklen/2501310244/ - broken link)


IMG_1760 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/teddyacklen/2501324646/ - broken link)


Fourth Ward, mostly residential with many Victorian homes:

Charlotte's 4th Ward on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2856966895/in/set-72157606576313902/ - broken link)


Charlotte's 4th Ward on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2856966301/in/set-72157606576313902/ - broken link)


4th Ward, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2739302110/ - broken link)


4th Ward, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2739302470/ - broken link)


4th Ward, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2738462221/in/set-72157606576313902/ - broken link)


4th Ward, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2739301674/in/set-72157606576313902/ - broken link)


4th Ward, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2738462435/ - broken link)


4th Ward, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2751145060/ - broken link)


4th Ward, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/3125857013/ - broken link)


Third Ward, location of Bank of America Stadium and a mix of old and new residential:

SH101768 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trz74/557922151/ - broken link)


Gateway Village, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2946927769/ - broken link)


First Ward, mostly commercial but some new residential and location of Bobcats arena:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9279951@N02/617765675/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/70715374/


NODA, arts district northeast of Uptown that was formerly textile plants and mill houses:

Area 15 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2729555313/ - broken link)


Evening Muse on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trz74/2140256192/ - broken link)


http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2730371112/ (broken link)


NoDa, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2729538511/in/set-72157611343798497/ - broken link)


NoDa, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2729538711/ - broken link)


Neighborhood Theater on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trz74/2140288114/ - broken link)


Solstice Tavern on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lucaskeipper/2404242796/ - broken link)


NoDa, Charlotte on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bz3rk/2729537875/ - broken link)


Myers Park, affluent in-town neighborhood established in 1911...located between Dilworth and Elizabeth:

My future neighborhood - Myers Park on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/benvankat/175204744/ - broken link)


SH104325 - Booty Loop on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trz74/1572285548/ - broken link)


SH105001 - Booty Loop on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trz74/1796695795/ - broken link)

[Katarina Witt]

Granted I was only in Charlotte once, but I thought the downtown was impressive. Maybe I'm just easily amused.

[Sandy Springs Rep.]

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

Even though Northeast Ohio is in the Rust Belt our GDP is still higher than most places and the highest in the state of Ohio.

In Ohio, the Cleveland metro area accounts for a disproportionate share of economic activity, generating 22.5 percent of the state's gross domestic product even though it has only 18.5 percent of the state's population, the study says.

Brookings Institution report shows Cleveland still a big economic force - OPENERS - Ohio Politics Blog by The Plain Dealer

That's not THAT disproportionate, though, is it? 4.5%? I mean, I'm no economist, but that doesn't seem like a lot to me.