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Ever wonder what happened to the thousands of electric trolley buses made by the Marmon company in the 1940s and 1950s? Most are alive and well in Mexico City, where they have been rebuilt several times in the past decades and still roll along clean and quiet. Some of them have logged more distance than any other vehicles ever built, countless millions of miles, but the records are not perfect so they are not officially recognized. Too bad we can't build any more trolley bus lines here in the US, far cheaper than light rail or streetcar, but much quieter on city streets and more economical to run. Note: you would not want to live next to a streetcar line due to the noise. I lived along a trolley bus line and they are quieter than your car.
Good point. Mpls/St Paul streetcars were sold to Mexico City and Newark, NJ back in 1954 when they abandoned the system. Not sure if Mexico City still has rail transit, but the Newark cars ran in that city's subway until just a couple years when they went to the newer, higher capacity "light rail" design.
Good point. Mpls/St Paul streetcars were sold to Mexico City and Newark, NJ back in 1954 when they abandoned the system. Not sure if Mexico City still has rail transit, but the Newark cars ran in that city's subway until just a couple years when they went to the newer, higher capacity "light rail" design.
Yep, Newark got rid of the PCCs in 2001 I think. They now use the same cars used on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Hudson County. It's a double-articulated modern light rail car by Kinki Sharyo. They're in service on the Newark City Subway Line and the Broad Street Line.
I think I've seen a Newark PCC on San Francisco's F Line, but painted in an older color scheme that pre-dates NJ Transit.
Yep, Newark got rid of the PCCs in 2001 I think. They now use the same cars used on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Hudson County. It's a double-articulated modern light rail car by Kinki Sharyo. They're in service on the Newark City Subway Line and the Broad Street Line.
I think I've seen a Newark PCC on San Francisco's F Line, but painted in an older color scheme that pre-dates NJ Transit.
Perhaps in the original owner's color scheme (Twin City Rapid Transit Lines)? I'll have to watch for it next time I am in SF. I was there last year and rode an F line PCC done up in Louisville's colors.
I concur. "Gold Plated" light rail isn't in the same league as el cheapo streetcar track, on the road, not in segregated ROWs.
There's currently two different light-rail loops being proposed for Detroit.
One proposal comes from the Detroit Department of Transportation. The system would be a 9.3 mile looped stretch up the main avenue, and is estimated to cost $371 million to build. The other plan comes from private investors. Their system would be a 3.4 mile loop up the same avenue (but not as far) and will cost $103 million to build.
The DDOT project is about $20 million per mile, assuming a total of 18.6 miles in the loop. The private project is about $15 million per mile, using the same assumption.
"I got ten miles of electrification, signals, and new rail for $2.5 million thanks to LTK's prudent estimates with my limitation on how fancy they could get. For example, I told them to use wood poles, but Reading demanded steel on the main line. I got wood on the single track.
As I've noted, it cost $2.5 million. Today, it would be approximately six times that - perhaps $15 million for ten miles of catenary, new rail, and signals. "
That's roughly $1.5 million / mile.
In the article above, the author claims it would cost only $15 million for tens miles of light rail (catenary, new rail, and signals) -- or $1.5 million per mile. But he's not including the cost of the stations, of the rail cars, or of any computerized traffic-light-switching systems.
The DDOT project is about $20 million per mile, assuming a total of 18.6 miles in the loop. The private project is about $15 million per mile, using the same assumption.
In the article above, the author claims it would cost only $15 million for tens miles of light rail (catenary, new rail, and signals) -- or $1.5 million per mile. But he's not including the cost of the stations, of the rail cars, or of any computerized traffic-light-switching systems.
Is this really comparing apples to apples?
If the DDOT project is including the rolling stock, then deduct their cost from the cost / mile estimate.
Apples to apples?
Of course, a pumpkin is an apple built to government specifications.
:-)
I stipulate that using $$$ as the sole criteria can be daunting.
We know that the "dollar bill" is a variable - not a constant. Depending on the year and the economy a "dollar bill" buys different quantities and values.
But I think you'll agree that a rail track's life expectancy is far longer than a paved road. In a 50 year period, how many times will a rail track be replaced versus repaving a road?
I don't know exactly, but if we guess that a road needs repaving every 5 years, then we have the cost of ten pavements to budget.
Rail? Under relatively light load? Maybe routine ROW maintenance, but not replacement for 20 years or more of service.
How about longevity of buses versus train cars over the same 50 years?
If you replace a bus every 10-15 years, that's 4 or 5 buses versus one train car. (There are several reports that cars made in the 1890s are still in service around the world.)
Then there's capacity.
A road has a fixed maximum carrying capacity that can't be expanded.
A rail track can boost capacity by adding more cars to a train, more frequent service, or both.
By some estimates, one track has the passenger carrying capacity of nine lanes of superhighway.
Some fuel consumption comparisons:
strickland.ca - transportation energy efficiency (fuel consumption) (http://strickland.ca/efficiency.html - broken link)
Rail : 2000 passenger miles / gallon
Diesel Bus: 280 passenger miles / gallon
Ford Explorer : 100 passenger miles / gallon (*fully loaded with passengers)
From Wiki:
MTA New York City Transit. It is one of the most extensive public transportation systems in the world, with 468 reported passenger stations, (or 422 if stations connected by transfers are counted as one), 229 miles (369 km) of routes, translating into 656 miles (1056 km) of revenue track, and a total of 842 miles (1355 km) including non- revenue trackage. The subway is also notable for being among the few rapid transit systems in the world to run 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Though it is known as "the subway", implying underground operations, about 40% of the system runs on above-ground tracks. The New York City subway has over 6,400 cars.
Daily ridership: 6,432,700.
NYC population: 8,274,527.
NY urban population: 18,498,000
Note the magnitude of efficiency - each train car moves an average of 1000 people per day. No bus nor car can match that. No highway system could endure that volume of traffic, in such a limited area.
In the scenario where the USA had to find an alternative to 70% of its 240 million automobiles, we can conservatively substitute 240 thousand passenger train cars, that may last a century or more, to carry the equivalent passenger load.
One hundred years ago, U.S.A. did this with a population of less than one-third of today's, approximately 3% of today's GNP, and relatively primitive technology.
I strongly suspect that if a massive nationwide rail building program was implemented, the cost per mile would drop significantly.
Do you happen to know what kind of streetcar was noisy?
Some have resilient rubber inner wheels that damp wheel noise (ex: PCC car).
On YouTube videos of European Trams, most were quiet, except occasional metallic screech from the wheels going around a sharp bend.
PCCs are virtually silent! I went to Kenosha to ride one and then was sad all the way home thinking about riding our super loud buses that are in terrible shape.
Jetgraphics, citing New York's MTA as an example of efficiency is like citing Seattle's light rail system as an example of cost. Each one represents an extreme.
Jetgraphics, citing New York's MTA as an example of efficiency is like citing Seattle's light rail system as an example of cost. Each one represents an extreme.
My apologies. I never meant to imply that NYC had "efficient" rail (lowest cost / passenger). It was to show that in the "extreme" case that oil imports were cut off (losing 70% of our supply), our best option would be to construct electrified urban rail. And in doing so, we'd need 1/1000 (guesstimate) the number of vehicles for the same number of passengers moved.
In the days before public ownership of the subway became the norm in New York City, there was competition, and with competition, there was innovation...
By the late 1920s, ... New York City was the center of mass transit in the U.S., as it still is today. One difference between the 1920s and our new century is that mass transit in general, and rail transit in particular, was a vibrant and mostly free enterprise industry.
Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, who had taken office in 1933, was no friend of streetcars, of elevated lines, or of private ownership of transit. He pressed relentlessly for “Unification,” the City takeover of the BMT and IRT.
After taking over the private companies, not only did the innovations of the BMT end, but the City lost its taste for subway building. The IND “Second System” of 1929 remains unbuilt. The private lines that attracted IND competition were abandoned, several immediately and more as the years went on. Major improvements have been proposed periodically and in 1950 a $500M bond issue was passed, ostensibly to build the Second Avenue Subway. But despite revived plans from time to time, including an ambitious program proposed in 1968, the Second Avenue Subway remains unbuilt and most other plans are pipedreams.
A transportation system that relies on a "non-renewable" resource is bound for collapse - the only question is whether we adapt in time, not whether we need to adapt.
[] I'd be ecstatic if a technological breakthrough eliminated the "brick wall" America is about to hit.
But based on a finite amount of energy (or available fuel), the most efficient land transport mode is steel wheel on steel rail.
And electric powered rail is the most efficient.
Battery powered vehicles won't perform as well outside of benign climates like So. Cal and Florida. Cold weather affects battery capacity. Running a heater or A/C drains the battery, hence the range. Running the headlamps drains the battery. In short, everything powered by electricity drains the battery and reduces the range. Electric cars won't solve the transportation problem nor effectively substitute for the 240 million oil consuming automobiles in service in the USA.
[Exception Flag on]
There is one possible scenario - if overhead power was set up for trolley pole equipped electric (or hybrid) vehicles. Then buses, trucks and automobiles could tap into the central power, and extend the range of their batteries. But that would require supporting electrified rail and overhead power distribution.
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My personal preference would be that no public funding would be used for rail mass transit. I'd rather that zero taxes be levied on it.
Unfortunately, present conditions are not conducive to such a solution. Power grabbing politicians would rather grab more tax money, and control how its spent, than let free enterprise make the decisions - and the profits.
PCCs are virtually silent! I went to Kenosha to ride one and then was sad all the way home thinking about riding our super loud buses that are in terrible shape.
Unfortunately, that is not the most depressing thing about the Kenosha streetcar.
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