U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-24-2011, 11:20 PM
 
7,280 posts, read 13,545,667 times
Reputation: 3622

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_himself View Post
Charlotte is very upper south to me. This is coming from a Louisianan.
Sure Charlotte does. Big city. Banking center. Plenty of transplants. None of that screams moonlight and magnolia. But NC is not just Charlotte and RDU and Asheville. As Mutiny said, Eastern NC is plenty southern, as are giant swaths of the rest of the state, particularly outside of the 5 or 10 largest cities/towns. Western NC is a little different, of course, as Appalachian culture is pretty distinct from a lot of the flatland southern culture, but that's another ball of wax, and I don't think you'd call any of those folks "upper south" the way you're using the term.

But yeah, using Charlotte as an indication of the whole of NC misses the mark.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-24-2011, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Denver
14,157 posts, read 19,808,972 times
Reputation: 8811
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaBredChicagoan View Post
Sure Charlotte does. Big city. Banking center. Plenty of transplants. None of that screams moonlight and magnolia. But NC is not just Charlotte and RDU and Asheville. As Mutiny said, Eastern NC is plenty southern, as are giant swaths of the rest of the state, particularly outside of the 5 or 10 largest cities/towns. Western NC is a little different, of course, as Appalachian culture is pretty distinct from a lot of the flatland southern culture, but that's another ball of wax, and I don't think you'd call any of those folks "upper south" the way you're using the term.

But yeah, using Charlotte as an indication of the whole of NC misses the mark.
I didn't mean to generalize NC whatsoever. My uncle, and architect (designed the LYNX shelters) in Charlotte, is married to a woman from Virgina (Charlotte's district court judge), I'm not sure where though. She has a very neutral attitude. Not a bit of southern in her, although she is from a wealthy family.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2011, 09:31 AM
 
800 posts, read 646,580 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Good Lord (yeah, I said it...being from the Bible Belt and all! ), in reading this post is it any wonder why many of us Southerners adopt the attitudes you accuse us of?

I can honestly say that, in my years on C-D forum, and seeing "regional-war" type threads get started, it is overwhelmingly northerners who initiate them. And then they accuse Southerners of "still fighting the War." This borders on the ludicrous, anyway. (see, two for good measure! ).

C'mon, Cincy...in discussing/debating with you on another thread, I would expect better out of you at least. Although, granted, you make very little secret of your basic disdain and contempt for the South. Which leads into my main point....

It is a continual source of wonder to me why many northerners who, whether posting on this forum, or moving to the South, indeed do make no secret about their essential hostility to the South and Southerners, and then step back and wax indignant over what they percieve as a "defensive" mentality. It is almost like that -- among a certain definite "sect" of yankees -- we Southerners are just supposed to roll over and play dead and apologize and pi$$ and moan and wallow in the hog-trough of guilt, over our Southern history and heritage. And, further, some northerners going so far as to believe they have an obligation to come down and "reform" us. This type arrogance and "savior-complex" mentality is astounding...but it is there and I have seen it.

Well, screw that! (sorry, ladies, for the vulgarity) I'm a proud Texan and un-reconstructed Southerner (meaning proud and patriotic American as well...yet I don't accept the Northern version of the WBTS) and make no bones about it. Its akin to that old sign that used to warn people visiting zoos of certain type critters. That is: WARNING. When Attacked, This Animal Will Defend Itself.

I am stopping short of putting you personally into the South-bashing bunch...but obviously there are plenty out there who slam the South and expect we should just humbly sit there and take it, perhaps because of some ill-considered and false notion that the South is some horried backwoods netherworld and the Northeast (and certain parts of the upper Midwest, and the West Coast) are some "Shangra-La" of enlightment and tolerance (even though the worse race-riots in modern history took place there).

As it is (and by the way, my own kids are "half-yankee"), I really don't give a fiddlers damn if certain northerners "make fun" of the South or not. Just don't expect me (and other Southerners like me) to go along with it out of a sense of historical guilt or inferiority that is inapplicable do begin with. The only thing I would like/wish is that they keep their attitudes and persons out of the South.

There's a reason I italicized some. I have no problem with most Southerners.

I have no problem with being proud of your region. The Midwest and South have a lot in common, coming from strong agricultural states.

That being said my disdain is not for the South as a whole, but rather for those who harbor the obnoxious, rude, and somewhat elitist attitude I encountered while I went to school in South Carolina, that has come out of a bent reinterpretation of historical events and exclusive attitude. I will elaborate more on this if you like, but they tarnish the Southern gentleman image for the true Southern gentlemen, who I believe can make friends with anyone, not just Southerners.

The point is the war happened 150ish years ago and its time to put in the past where it belongs. The South should not feel guilty about slavery, it happened 150 years ago.

Where the South begins should not be defined by 150 year old relics, but rather where Southern traditions, from eating grits to sugary accents remain the strongest, not where the most people fly the Confederate flag or still thinking they're fighting a war.

I think the South has made amazing contributions to this country just like every other region has. But if we can't poke fun at each other every once in a while where is fun in that
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2011, 05:33 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,140,519 times
Reputation: 5742
Overall, IMHO, a good and well-thought out post (which you usually do)...from your perspective. Now come the flip side of the record!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyIU29 View Post
There's a reason I italicized some. I have no problem with most Southerners.
Likewise, most Southerners have no problem with most northerners.

Quote:
That being said my disdain is not for the South as a whole, but rather for those who harbor the obnoxious, rude, and somewhat elitist attitude I encountered while I went to school in South Carolina, that has come out of a bent reinterpretation of historical events and exclusive attitude. I will elaborate more on this if you like, but they tarnish the Southern gentleman image for the true Southern gentlemen, who I believe can make friends with anyone, not just Southerners.
First of all, Cincy, did it ever occur to you that perhaps you were the problem as to why you encountered what you call obnoxious, rude, and elitist attitudes? You and I broached on that subject in another thread, and nothing you are saying here changes my mind as to my outlook.

What many northerners do not seem to understand/grasp is that, in a sense, you are coming into "our home", and expecting our attitudes, values, mannerism, etc, must conform to yours. To a Southerner, there is nothing so obnoxious, rude, and elitist, as a non-Southerner moving down here and retaining the attitude that how it was done "Up North" is the better way to go.

In fact, it is laughable and, almost, unfathomable...especially since many of that ilk moved down here because they no longer had a job up there! Then, seemingly, want to (either latently or intentionally) want to turn the state/area in question back into the same one that was ruined and fled.

The historical aspect? What about it? Just because the winners write the history doesn't mean there is not another side of it. Why are you not open to seeing another side without automatically labeling it "revisionist history."? To me, revisionist history is that penned (later) by certain northern apologists who desperately try to simplify the War into a kindergarten arena where northern crusaders came down to free the slaves from Uncle Tom's cabin! And -- as it is -- some actually believe such nonsense.

Quote:
The point is the war happened 150ish years ago and its time to put in the past where it belongs. The South should not feel guilty about slavery, it happened 150 years ago.
.

You have a certain point here. The past is the past. However, it is the study of history. And -- at least IMHO - the greatest roadmap to the future is what happened in the past. I appreciate that you say the South today should not feel guilty over slavery. Especially, since the institution has existed from the dawn of time and practiced all over the world and by every race/ethnic group, and upon all of the other. Africans sold their own into slavery, and there were -- proportionally speaking -- many black slave-owners in the cotton South. And, of course, that the American slave trade was a purely northern commodity.

Quote:
Where the South begins should not be defined by 150 year old relics, but rather where Southern traditions, from eating grits to sugary accents remain the strongest, not where the most people fly the Confederate flag or still thinking they're fighting a war.
This is a great sound-byte...but noteably superficial. I don't expect a non-Southerner to truly understand/comprehend, that icons of the Confederacy are often an object of family history/heritage/regional pride/ etc. that have nothing at all to do with "living inthe past" or "still fighting the War."

Don't make the mistake of didactically lecturing on this aspect. For one thing, with all due respect, you (and in a third person sense) really have no idea of what "you" are talking about. Maybe reduced to a common cliched' denominator? It Is a Southern Thing; You Wouldn't Understand!

Anyway, the reason the vast majority of Southerners who display the Confederate Flag is because we are proud of the fighting spirits of our Confederate ancestors, and our very unique (historical/cultural) region. Also, it often deeply involves our personal family roots and traditions. In a nutshell, it is really something that, perhaps, only another Southerner can truly understand (even if the Southerner in question has his/her own issues with their heritage).

Quote:
I think the South has made amazing contributions to this country just like every other region has. But if we can't poke fun at each other every once in a while where is fun in that
LOL I am sure we Southerners appreciate this toast of yours as to our contributions to the history of the country! Ok, ok, I admit to being a little ironic in reply to what I see as some condecension on your own part...but I appreciate the point you are making...even if you are a yankee!

But seriously, signing off on this one for now, I absolutely agree we (regionally speaking) need to be able to poke fun at one another sometime, and it be taken in the general spirit of good humor and fun. The United States would be awful boring if the various states/regions were all alike. And could'nt give each other a hard time about differences!

Agreed?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2011, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in the Eastern Seaboard.......
317 posts, read 481,459 times
Reputation: 191
Where does the South begin? Which states are South?

Washington DC & Louisville Kentucky are typically viewed as Gateway to the South" cities.

Some folks however view Kentucky as a Midwestern state, and Washington DC as a Mid-Atlantic/Northeast city. Most would agree if you reach the border line at Tennessee and North Carolina, you are officially in the South. But....the northern culture has moved south. Even as far down to Virginia like Richmond and Norfolk areas are arguably more Northern. It's a matter of taste; Virginia is sort of split in that way in that some folks have more of an affinity towards the North, plus you have a lot of Midwesterners and Northeasterners in the state so the feel has changed. Southern in Virginia, Kentucky, Maryland, West Virginia means something entirely different than what it does in other states in the south.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2011, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
3,191 posts, read 4,143,651 times
Reputation: 2109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~CountryBoy~ View Post
Where does the South begin? Which states are South?

Washington DC & Louisville Kentucky are typically viewed as Gateway to the South" cities.

Some folks however view Kentucky as a Midwestern state, and Washington DC as a Mid-Atlantic/Northeast city. Most would agree if you reach the border line at Tennessee and North Carolina, you are officially in the South. But....the northern culture has moved south. Even as far down to Virginia like Richmond and Norfolk areas are arguably more Northern. It's a matter of taste; Virginia is sort of split in that way in that some folks have more of an affinity towards the North, plus you have a lot of Midwesterners and Northeasterners in the state so the feel has changed. Southern in Virginia, Kentucky, Maryland, West Virginia means something entirely different than what it does in other states in the south.
Way back when, "The South" started partway into Maryland, nowadays I'm going to say somewhere between D.C. and Richmond. I consider Kentucky a southern state as well.

I feel that the modern Mason-Dixon line is from somewhere north of Richmond and South of D.C., spanning west through central West Virginia, holds on the Ohio river dividing Kentucky (south) from them other states to it's north, into a little itty bitty sliver of Illinois (Cairo) and drops south into the Missouri bootheel and hugs southern Missouri (including Branson, Joplin and the Ozarks) continues through Oklahoma (and that said the South and it's culture includes the entire state of Oklahoma) drops down into west Texas (most of West Texas, including Lubbock/Midland/Odessa/Littlefield and perhaps Amarillo etc) and pushes as far west as far eastern New Mexico (Roswell/Hobbs/Carlsbad).

That's all I think, for all I know the South may truely start in Miami. ()
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2011, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Ohio, USA
1,085 posts, read 1,350,724 times
Reputation: 970
Maryland is neither Northern or Southern, but once you cross the Potomiac river, you're in the South.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2011, 09:49 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,341 posts, read 19,615,226 times
Reputation: 13149
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyFries View Post
Maryland is neither Northern or Southern, but once you cross the Potomiac river, you're in the South.
Wrong on all points.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2011, 10:34 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,417 posts, read 7,723,901 times
Reputation: 3069
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Overall, IMHO, a good and well-thought out post (which you usually do)...from your perspective. Now come the flip side of the record!



Likewise, most Southerners have no problem with most northerners.



First of all, Cincy, did it ever occur to you that perhaps you were the problem as to why you encountered what you call obnoxious, rude, and elitist attitudes? You and I broached on that subject in another thread, and nothing you are saying here changes my mind as to my outlook.

What many northerners do not seem to understand/grasp is that, in a sense, you are coming into "our home", and expecting our attitudes, values, mannerism, etc, must conform to yours. To a Southerner, there is nothing so obnoxious, rude, and elitist, as a non-Southerner moving down here and retaining the attitude that how it was done "Up North" is the better way to go.

In fact, it is laughable and, almost, unfathomable...especially since many of that ilk moved down here because they no longer had a job up there! Then, seemingly, want to (either latently or intentionally) want to turn the state/area in question back into the same one that was ruined and fled.

The historical aspect? What about it? Just because the winners write the history doesn't mean there is not another side of it. Why are you not open to seeing another side without automatically labeling it "revisionist history."? To me, revisionist history is that penned (later) by certain northern apologists who desperately try to simplify the War into a kindergarten arena where northern crusaders came down to free the slaves from Uncle Tom's cabin! And -- as it is -- some actually believe such nonsense.

.

You have a certain point here. The past is the past. However, it is the study of history. And -- at least IMHO - the greatest roadmap to the future is what happened in the past. I appreciate that you say the South today should not feel guilty over slavery. Especially, since the institution has existed from the dawn of time and practiced all over the world and by every race/ethnic group, and upon all of the other. Africans sold their own into slavery, and there were -- proportionally speaking -- many black slave-owners in the cotton South. And, of course, that the American slave trade was a purely northern commodity.



This is a great sound-byte...but noteably superficial. I don't expect a non-Southerner to truly understand/comprehend, that icons of the Confederacy are often an object of family history/heritage/regional pride/ etc. that have nothing at all to do with "living inthe past" or "still fighting the War."

Don't make the mistake of didactically lecturing on this aspect. For one thing, with all due respect, you (and in a third person sense) really have no idea of what "you" are talking about. Maybe reduced to a common cliched' denominator? It Is a Southern Thing; You Wouldn't Understand!

Anyway, the reason the vast majority of Southerners who display the Confederate Flag is because we are proud of the fighting spirits of our Confederate ancestors, and our very unique (historical/cultural) region. Also, it often deeply involves our personal family roots and traditions. In a nutshell, it is really something that, perhaps, only another Southerner can truly understand (even if the Southerner in question has his/her own issues with their heritage).



LOL I am sure we Southerners appreciate this toast of yours as to our contributions to the history of the country! Ok, ok, I admit to being a little ironic in reply to what I see as some condecension on your own part...but I appreciate the point you are making...even if you are a yankee!

But seriously, signing off on this one for now, I absolutely agree we (regionally speaking) need to be able to poke fun at one another sometime, and it be taken in the general spirit of good humor and fun. The United States would be awful boring if the various states/regions were all alike. And could'nt give each other a hard time about differences!

Agreed?
>>>>>
What many northerners do not seem to understand/grasp is that, in a sense, you are coming into "our home", and expecting our attitudes, values, mannerism, etc, must conform to yours. To a Southerner, there is nothing so obnoxious, rude, and elitist, as a non-Southerner moving down here and retaining the attitude that how it was done "Up North" is the better way to go.
<<<<<

^^^
This is worth repeating.

Great points, Friend.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-27-2011, 01:14 AM
 
29,968 posts, read 27,489,279 times
Reputation: 18559
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I appreciate that you say the South today should not feel guilty over slavery. Especially, since the institution has existed from the dawn of time and practiced all over the world and by every race/ethnic group, and upon all of the other. Africans sold their own into slavery, and there were -- proportionally speaking -- many black slave-owners in the cotton South.
OK, I know this is a very minor point in the overall discussion, but I must admit that it bothers me every time I read it although I understand why it's said. But suffice to say that, generally speaking, no one sold "their own" into slavery; it was always the "other" that was enslaved. It's a relatively recent phenomenon, one that pretty much coincides with the founding of this country as a matter of fact, to lump people together based on color of skin and continental location, but it's very, very inaccurate from a historical perspective. Whether we wish to talk about different people groups in Africa or Europe (Slavic peoples) or wherever, it was always one ethnic group--each with their own set of customs, languages, religious beliefs, etc.--against another. Skin color was not some sort of overarching binding factor among these groups. For the most part, that is entirely an American invention in which skin color was made to be such, and over time it did become correlated with specific cultural patterns and traits.

OK, digression over. Just had to jump on my soapbox for a minute. Carry on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top