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Old 03-20-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
1,305 posts, read 3,476,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivo View Post
Is there usually a feeling of indifference, tolerance? Is there a predominant feeling or a huge variation?
It's difficult to take pride in something that barely existed. But (and this is a big BUT), I wonder if some of this so-called pride is more a response to the Yankee cult of demonization that has plagued the Southern morale since reconstruction. There seems to be a punishment fetish wetting the slavering mouths of every New England puritan that borders on sadism. I've said it before and I'll say it again: at least the South has confronted our ugly, racist past. It is a reality we daily deal with and are actively working to improve. Unlike the rest of the country, this isn't an issue we can sweep under the rug and hope it goes away.

And, as far as the flag goes, it is hokey, trite, somewhat offensive and representative of a different time, but there are people here who still agree with the principles of the confederacy. The people in the South aren't perfect, but there are bigots everywhere. And, many of the people who have it on their walls put it there because it looks cool, not because their morality is aligned with the tenets it represents. No matter your leanings, you've got to admit it has a cool design.

 
Old 03-20-2009, 10:18 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,515,227 times
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To answer the original question, it has been my experience that most black Southerners don't give it much thought one way or another so long as it is not done in an intentionally offensive manner. The first para in my classroom was a black man, and the one today is a black woman. I am friends outside of work with the former, and we occasionally visit and go have a beer together or something. The subject has come up before and he just says its no big deal to him, and that most blacks he knows feel the same way. He accepts that it is just part of our history and heritage.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Lower East Side, Milwaukee, WI
2,943 posts, read 5,045,217 times
Reputation: 1113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali's Grandma View Post
Great...yet another thread to fight the civil war ALL over again.

North won....South lost.....it's over....it's done.....

Get over it!
For sure. Why are Southerners so obsessed with flying the "Stars & Bars" in the first place? You guys lost the Civil War, remember? The Confederate flag represents your failure and should be a symbol that makes you feel ashamed every time you see it.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 11:03 AM
 
6,615 posts, read 16,499,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgerflipper View Post
That's pretty pathetic if you can't mention that you have some degree of German ancestry.
It is sad that people are unable to appreciate their cultural heritage while condemning its dark side at the same time. I am proud of America, but not proud of everything America has done. It's called nuance, folks.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 11:23 AM
 
14 posts, read 24,402 times
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I am black, with black ancestry, from the south. I can tell you with great confidence that a large majority of black southerners view the confederacy praise - by southerners or anyone else - negatively, find it repulsive, offensive, etc.
I can say it with great confidence because I have spent the majority of my life in close, intimate contact with southern blacks in situations where they feel comfortable enough to express themselves and tell you the real deal.
This is not coming from someone who has a few black friends. Don't believe that hype! This is coming from a person - and his black family, friends, etc - whose ancestors suffered under the confederacy and the other groups it morphed into.
The confederacy did not surrender completely when the Civil War ended. They continued the fight by taking on a new form when the confederacy eventually gave birth to the klan. The klan terrorized and murdered blacks, whites who did not support their views, etc. The confederacy and the klan morphed into segregationist southern politicians who created "jim crow" laws.
I speculate that any people whose families had suffered for so long at the hands of a group and its offspring would not view that group's praise for its actions and causes with anything but negative feelings.
This is not to say that you can't find some ill-informed or un-informed blacks whose indifference is reflected in their lack of being informed or whose support of the confederacy results from their being ill-informed.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
1,305 posts, read 3,476,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacobeclark View Post
For sure. Why are Southerners so obsessed with flying the "Stars & Bars" in the first place? You guys lost the Civil War, remember? The Confederate flag represents your failure and should be a symbol that makes you feel ashamed every time you see it.
I'd rank this "obsession" below the Northern obsession with rubbing our faces in a war fought by other people during a different time when no one now alive was alive. You may find it silly, but regardless of whether or not it was right, it is a piece of our regional identity. To say it is representative of the South's antebellum views on slavery and nothing more is rather myopic and nauseatingly paternalistic. Sure, the war was won by the North, but the culture of the South wasn't wiped off the face of the planet. Is there some expectation by some people in this forum that we should have some sort of enforced hegemony and singular national identity? If so, know this: it won't happen. This country is too large and the regions are too diverse.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 11:37 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,515,227 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacobeclark View Post
For sure. Why are Southerners so obsessed with flying the "Stars & Bars" in the first place? You guys lost the Civil War, remember? The Confederate flag represents your failure and should be a symbol that makes you feel ashamed every time you see it.
Why are so many non-Southerners obscessed with worrying about it? It is part of our history and heritage. So get over it in turn. And by the way, I am willing to bet you don't know that the Stars and Bars is NOT the banner most people identify as the "Rebel Flag." (which actually is not uncommon among Southerners either! LOL).

The former is a design a most folks wouldn't even recognize. The Stars and Bars was the first national flag of the Confederacy. The design most folks think of as the "Confederate Flag" is actually only one of many unofficial "Battle Flag" designs. Here is a site which contains some history on the subject:

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by TexasReb; 03-20-2009 at 12:27 PM..
 
Old 03-20-2009, 12:19 PM
 
475 posts, read 680,118 times
Reputation: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacobeclark View Post
Why are Southerners so obsessed with flying the "Stars & Bars" in the first place?...
Obsessed? If there were a general obsession among "southerners", I doubt I'd be able to live my day-to-day life without seeing the flag. I'm from NC and live in GA and I can not tell you the last time I've seen that flag. (Admittedly, driving through rural areas changes the frequency of sightings). Similarly, I've only "heard" the Confedaracy discussed on message boards like this; the people I know don't sit around in 2009 talking about the war and its participants. LOL.

As far as my family, friends, and associates go - it's something that really doesn't get any attention or conversation. In our lives, the "flag" isn't an issue. For years, I would equate the rare sight of the flag on a shirt, house, car as a symbol of racism and an indicator that the owner might be a little redneck-ish. I do understand now that some who display the flag are just proudly representing something their ancestors believed in (for better or worse).

Still, if I was driving thru a rural area and saw a small mom-and-pop convenience store with the flag hanging above the door/sign - I wouldn't go in. It's all about context. Let's just call it uninviting.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Bayou City
3,017 posts, read 5,193,679 times
Reputation: 2546
Quote:
Originally Posted by gold15 View Post
Obsessed? If there were a general obsession among "southerners", I doubt I'd be able to live my day-to-day life without seeing the flag. I'm from NC and live in GA and I can not tell you the last time I've seen that flag. (Admittedly, driving through rural areas changes the frequency of sightings). Similarly, I've only "heard" the Confedaracy discussed on message boards like this; the people I know don't sit around in 2009 talking about the war and its participants. LOL.

As far as my family, friends, and associates go - it's something that really doesn't get any attention or conversation. In our lives, the "flag" isn't an issue. For years, I would equate the rare sight of the flag on a shirt, house, car as a symbol of racism and an indicator that the owner might be a little redneck-ish. I do understand now that some who display the flag are just proudly representing something their ancestors believed in (for better or worse).

Still, if I was driving thru a rural area and saw a small mom-and-pop convenience store with the flag hanging above the door/sign - I wouldn't go in. It's all about context. Let's just call it uninviting.
That's it. Bottom line.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 12:28 PM
 
8,276 posts, read 11,841,506 times
Reputation: 10075
Default So I suppose...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Why are so many non-Southerners obscessed with worrying about it? It is part of our history and heritage. So get over it in turn. And by the way, I am willing to bet you don't know that the Stars and Bars is NOT the banner most people identify as the "Rebel Flag." (which actually is not uncommon among Southerners either! LOL).

The former is a design a most folks wouldn't even recognize. The Stars and Bars was the first national flag of the Confederacy. The design most folks think of as the "Confederate Flag" is actually only one of many unofficial "Battle Flag" designs. Here is a site which somes some history on the subject:

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
....that if I ever visit a southern city, and someone asks me to "hold this flag" for a minute, I'd better ask what the flag represents, because I don't want to embarass myself?

You can take honor in Southern history, culture, etc., all you want, but honestly, where does it end? Every question becomes a referendum on Texas, the South, the Confederacy, the "southerness" of Texas, giving gold stars to members of the Confederacy, the military emphasis, and now , the FLAGS of the Confederacy?!?!?! Do you have some wish that you could have been at Robert E. Lee's side as Richmond was burning? Do you salute the "Stars and Bars" flag when you leave the house in the morning as you listen to "The Eyes of Texas Are Upon You" ?

You do have some interesting conversations, and I'm not usually this opinionated, but enough is enough! Start a different conversation, and try not to mention any of the above, for a change.
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