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View Poll Results: Which is the best?
Baltimore 37 30.58%
Cleveland 27 22.31%
Charlotte 57 47.11%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-13-2009, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,372 posts, read 2,794,233 times
Reputation: 839

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There's no real comparison between a city with the stature of Cleveland ... and Charlotte. Cleveland ( and notable Clevelanders ) helped to shape and build a large majority of our country. It's quite true that my city has experienced a plethora of socio-economic problems and related stresses ... but show me a major American city that has not! You don't discount a city like "Cleveland" just because it shares the same problems that the majority of other large U.S. cities does. Cleveland is such a tremendously beautiful city ( despite the pockets of urban decay ) and the natural settings are noteworthy. The city rests on a series of high ridges and valleys, giving it a somewhat unique setting in comparison to most midwestern locations. Northeast Ohio and Cleveland has bountiful resources, a beautiful location, the best healthcare facilities, museums and culture to be found almost anywhere.
It's a struggle to "be here at times due to the present economy", but it's "never a struggle to remain here" ... Cleveland is so vastly underrated and is too often maligned. I'd take my city any day over the bland "cookie cutter cities like Charlotte". Cleveland is poised for another renaissance ... and ever so happy to call it my home. I'm including a photo that is representative of "some" of the natural beauty to be found in Clevelands "city limits", the beautiful "Mill Creek Falls", the highest cataract in Cuyahoga County.
Attached Thumbnails
Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-mill-creek-falls-cleveland.jpg  
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:36 AM
 
Location: metro ATL
8,190 posts, read 12,329,638 times
Reputation: 2698
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDBaumgardner View Post
I'd take my city any day over the bland "cookie cutter cities like Charlotte".
The way your post started out, I thought I was going to get someone reasonable about the comparison who would simply extol the virtues of their own city without slamming the other or resorting to name-calling. I see I was wrong. But it's cool. "Cookie-cutterville" is doing just fine for itself. If Cleveland is so superior, how did it let a lil ol' hamlet like Charlotte catch up and surpass it economically? And yes, several other large cities have experienced similar problems that Cleveland has, but many of them have overcome such problems, unlike Cleveland. What you guys are experiencing isn't the norm. Even Detroit, of all places, is experiencing some gains in its metro area population, while Cleveland is experiencing losses in both the city and the metro area as a whole. Something's wrong there, and it's obvious that geographic location, culture, etc. aren't enough to keep people there. Charlotte will continue to press on into the future while the haters keep hating as we keep surpassing their cities in QOL indicators.
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:57 AM
 
Location: metro ATL
8,190 posts, read 12,329,638 times
Reputation: 2698
I received this in a PM from a Clevelander (have no idea why the person couldn't post that here), and I think it's worth sharing here:

Quote:
I keep reading your post that state, "bla bla bla, our population is increasing, bla bla bla, so that means we are more desirable, and bla bla bla yours is losing, so bla bla bla that means your city is not desirable, bla bla bla, I'm a big fn dumbass."

That is the most black and white reason I have ever seen described, and it is used on this forum all the time. First off, cities like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, are going to lose population to go from cities that heavily relied on industry. Many of these industries, like steel in Pittsburgh, have employeed thousands (up to 5000 in one mill) per a few acres. The new economy of America such as offices, health care, etc, could not employ anywhere near those numbers. These cities could change their economy, change to white collar tech jobs, have a much higher standard of life, but still lose population. They are SHEDDING population from going from heavy industrial cities to newer, cleaner, livable cities. They are still all much more dense, urban, and historic then Charlotte. Cities like Pittsburgh are not empty, are not rundown, and almost every neighborhood there is very vibrant. Instead of having a Irish Catholic family of 15 whose dad worked at a steel mill, are now filled with younger couples, or singles. These changes do not make the city less desirable than you describe.

Cities with gaining populations do not mean they are desirable to many. I go to Charlotte every month. It is very undesirable to me. It is one enormous suburb. The only people that city appeals to are the ones who love surburbia. Which sadly is a lot of people, since most Americans have very low intelligence levels.
First of all, let it be known that I specifically mentioned both city and metro population as it regards population losses/gains in order to be fair since several American cities peaked in population sometime during the 50's and then subsequently declined but then the suburbs gained in population, meaning that the overall region was still healthy. This wasn't just true of industrial cities in the North; a few Sunbelt cities experienced losses in the city as well like Atlanta (which has since rebounded and the city has more people now than at any other time in its history). However, when the entire region, both cities AND suburbs, are hemorrhaging people, that's a problem that simply cannot be ignored. As I mentioned earlier, even Detroit has experienced some gains within the past few years as a region, and the same is true of other Rustbelt and declining Midwest metro areas.

If less historic cities are undesirable to you, then that's fine. However, an abundance of older buildings means nothing when it comes to livability, opportunities for job growth, and a higher standard/cheaper cost of living, and people are finding that in Charlotte. Call them unintelligent all you want, but people are voting with their feet. Instead of slamming Charlotte and other cities that have done well for themselves, take a look at your own cities and look for ways to improve because trust me, we aren't jealous of Cleveland or any other Rustbelt city down here. That's not a knock, that's just reality. We're making great improvements down here, making do with what we have, and doing a hell of a job at it. The whole "one big suburb" knock is old. We're looking towards the future, not past realities.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,372 posts, read 2,794,233 times
Reputation: 839
Default "The Way your post started out, I thought I was going to get someone reasonable"

You have read a response from someone who is quite reasonable ... it seems that "over sensitivity" exists, even in places like "Charlotte" ...
In my last posting there was absolutely no vile bashing of Charlotte, I only referred to it as another "cookie cutter" metropolis ... which it is!

You can't compare cities like Charlotte, Atlanta or even Phoenix to a city with the history, resources and the stature of Cleveland ... it's an unbalanced comparison for many different reasons.
You are absolutely correct in stating that Charlotte continues to experience growth, while the population of Cleveland has continued to experience a steady decline. This has much more to do with the state of our "countries economy" and the fact that "most people" prefer to live in a climate that offers warmer temps and less snow ... which Charlotte handily wins.

When I say that it's an unbalanced comparison, it truly is ... burgeoning Charlotte has stature in its own right, but it will never command the same level of stature that Cleveland "still has".
"We here in Cleveland" were a burgeoning metropolis during a time when the cattle were still grazing in what is now Charlottes city centre. Our prominence ( like Detroits and Pittsburghs ) has tarnished a tad bit in these tough economic times, but our legacy as one of the "WORLDS GREAT CITIES" still lives on today ... despite our dwindling population.
Cleveland, and "Clevelanders" have made vast and momumental contributions to society, America and indeed the world at large. Charlotte has many of it's own proud merits ... however, we're talking "apples and oranges" here.

Charlotte is still feeling lofty ( just like Cleveland once had ) but just wait until the continued economic stresses that are enveloping our country, begin to wear and whither on this self described "Emerald City" of the new south ... it's already taking shape with the banking meltdown that has shaken Charlotte to it's very foundations.
In the interest of being fair minded, you seem to enjoy pointing out how Cleveland is in the throes of depression and how multitudes of people continue to flee this very "proud city" ... but don't feel too overly confident there in Charlotte ... what occurred in Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh and many other cities ... CAN ALSO OCCUR IN A CITY LIKE CHARLOTTE! "Sometimes the tallest of us all ... takes an unexpected tumble" ... just like what has happened here.

What Cleveland does offer to those "brave enough" to venture here, is an unparralled wealth of history, vast natural resources, a dynamic urban center with bountiful beauty ... and also lots of HOPE for a rebirth, rediscovery and a complete renaissance!
It's already happening here too ... Cleveland is at the very forefront of medical care and we are NOW diversifying our economy ... add to this mix our beautiful and stately residential areas, leafy and mature suburbs with mansions that make Beverly Hills stutter, a vast network of freeways and an UNLIMITED WATER SUPPLY with Lake Erie as a backdrop ... it's a recipe for a city that is at the threshold of renewal.

There are many ex Clevelanders who would never come back to live here ... and thats their privilege ... but there are a great many WHO DO RETURN HERE as they recognize the comforts, the values and the resources of living in CLEVELAND!

How's this for a fair and kind response?

Thanks for listening
Attached Thumbnails
Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-believe-cleveland.jpg  

Last edited by JohnDBaumgardner; 08-18-2009 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Crown Town
2,742 posts, read 5,994,650 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDBaumgardner View Post
You have read a response from someone who is quite reasonable ... it seems that "over sensitivity" exists, even in places like "Charlotte" ...
In my last posting there was absolutely no vile bashing of Charlotte, I only referred to it as another "cookie cutter" metropolis ... which it is!

You can't compare cities like Charlotte, Atlanta or even Phoenix to a city with the history, resources and the stature of Cleveland ... it's an unbalanced comparison for many different reasons.
You are absolutely correct in stating that Charlotte continues to experience growth, while the population of Cleveland has continued to experience a steady decline. This has much more to do with the state of our "countries economy" and the fact that "most people" prefer to live in a climate that offers warmer temps and less snow ... which Charlotte handily wins.

When I say that it's an unbalanced comparison, it truly is ... burgeoning Charlotte has stature in its own right, but it will never command the same level of stature that Cleveland "still has".
"We here in Cleveland" were a burgeoning metropolis during a time when the cattle were still grazing in what is now Charlottes city centre. Our prominence ( like Detroits and Pittsburghs ) has tarnished a tad bit in these tough economic times, but our legacy as one of the "WORLDS GREAT CITIES" still lives on today ... despite our dwindling population.
Cleveland, and "Clevelanders" have made vast and momumental contributions to society, America and indeed the world at large. Charlotte has many of it's own proud merits ... however, we're talking "apples and oranges" here.

Charlotte is still feeling lofty ( just like Cleveland once had ) but just wait until the continued economic stresses that are enveloping our country, begin to wear and whither on this self described "Emerald City" of the new south ... it's already taking shape with the banking meltdown that has shaken Charlotte to it's very foundations.
In the interest of being fair minded, you seem to enjoy pointing out how Cleveland is in the throes of depression and how multitudes of people continue to flee this very "proud city" ... but don't feel too overly confident there in Charlotte ... what occurred in Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh and many other cities ... CAN ALSO OCCUR IN A CITY LIKE CHARLOTTE! "Sometimes the tallest of us all ... takes an unexpected tumble" ... just like what has happened here.

What Cleveland does offer to those "brave enough" to venture here, is an unparralled wealth of history, vast natural resources, a dynamic urban center with bountiful beauty ... and also lots of HOPE for a rebirth, rediscovery and a complete renaissance!
It's already happening here too ... Cleveland is at the very forefront of medical care and we are NOW diversifying our economy ... add to this mix our beautiful and stately residential areas, leafy and mature suburbs with mansions that make Beverly Hills stutter, a vast network of freeways and an UNLIMITED WATER SUPPLY with Lake Erie as a backdrop ... it's a recipe for a city that is at the threshold of renewal.

There are many ex Clevelanders who would never come back to live here ... and thats their privilege ... but there are a great many WHO DO RETURN HERE as they recognize the comforts, the values and the resources of living in CLEVELAND!

How's this for a fair and kind response?

Thanks for listening
Very odd. You use terms like Cleveland's "stature" and Cleveland's "prominance". Terms I've never heard associated with Cleveland. I know the city has had a mild renaissance in its downtown, but nothing above what is going on in most cities, and certainly not Charlotte. Unfortunatley, the term most associated with Cleveland is "The Mistake on the Lake", and that's about all.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,372 posts, read 2,794,233 times
Reputation: 839
Default Typical Cleveland "HATE" from "Carolina Blue"

Hey, "Carolina Blue" ... are you feeling "blue" because life in that overblown city of Charlotte has gotten you down? When one is "feeling blue" ( hence your screen name: "Carolina Blue" ) that usually is meant as being "down and out" ... awwwwwwww, that's really too bad for you!
Maybe if you were here in "Cleveland", you could have joined me for a spectacular view of my city ... along the beautiful shores of a "Great Lake", our own Lake Erie ... hmmmmmmmm, this photo certainly does not portray "A mistake by the lake"? Perhaps you were thinking of Charlottes "cess pool of a lake" ... what's that polluted body of water again ... oh, Lake Norman! hehe
Well, take another look ... there's NO MISTAKE here!
Attached Thumbnails
Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-img_0868.jpg  
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,372 posts, read 2,794,233 times
Reputation: 839
Default You Be The Judge ... For Your Eyes Only, I Offer "Cleveland"!

Cleveland: The Best Location In The Nation!
Attached Thumbnails
Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-img_0866.jpg   Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-img_0712.jpg   Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-img_0823.jpg  
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,372 posts, read 2,794,233 times
Reputation: 839
Default Cleveland Rocks!

More of "Life On Americas North Coast, Cleveland"

Hmmmmm ... unlimited water supply, ( Sorry for you, Charlotte! ) the best museums and healthcare in the U.S., a wealth of beauty and natural resources ... and a reanaissance that is already taking shape, I think it's best never to underestimate a city with the stature of "Cleveland" ...by the way, whenever the tap "does" run dry in Charlotte ... we'll welcome you here when you thirst!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-img_0862.jpg   Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-img_0910.jpg   Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-img_1336.jpg  
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:30 PM
 
6,272 posts, read 10,025,558 times
Reputation: 4724
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDBaumgardner View Post
Cleveland: The Best Location In The Nation!
Cleveland is a BEAUTIFUL city. So is B-more. Charlotte is a "big city on the verge". By that I mean Charlotte is not as established as Cleveland and B-more, but Charlotte will surpass Cleveland and B-more in size and importance within the next 10 to 15 years (if even that long).

Here are two recent photos of Uptown Charlotte.





These photos were taken from the 37th floor of "The Vue" condo tower currently under construction. This tower will be over 50 stories tall when completed.

I did not show these photos in some attempt to brag about Charlotte or belittle B-more and Cleveland. I just wanted to show that Charlotte is a "city on the verge". What Charlotte is today, Charlotte will no longer be in 5 years. Charlotte is ever changing and ever growing. Charlotte is by far the best long term investment of the three cities listed on this thread.

Check out the 100 year growth of these three cities.

Charlotte's Population
34,000 (1910)
715,000 (2009)

Cleveland's Population
560,000 (1910)
440,000 (2009)

Baltimore's Population
558,000 (1910)
640,000 (2009)

Charlotte simply benefits from being a southern city. Now that the economic restraints of slavery and segregation no longer exists in the South, southern cities are quickly catching up to there (once much larger) northern counterparts. I would not bet against a city with a 100 year track record for growth and development like Charlotte.

Charlotte is the way to go on this thread.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
1,372 posts, read 2,794,233 times
Reputation: 839
Impressive views of Charlotte, but what happens when your tap runs dry, dear?
Just because Charlotte expects to continue growing, it does not mean that it's the best of the cities mentioned in this thread ... ongoing and rapid growth does NOT equate to an excellent quality of life, in fact it can actually "take away" from the qualities that initially attracted so many people to cities like Charlotte. One doesn't simply define "quality of life" by a cities economy alone or job market ... all the hustle and bustle in the universe still does NOT make Charlotte a better choice over Cleveland ... NEVER!
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Should I move from Baltimore to Cleveland or Charlotte?-beauty-cleveland.jpg  
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