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View Poll Results: Which is the best?
Baltimore 37 30.58%
Cleveland 27 22.31%
Charlotte 57 47.11%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-05-2009, 10:15 AM
 
Location: The Queen City
174 posts, read 354,643 times
Reputation: 207

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Lakes View Post
90% of the people. Give me a break buddy. There are a lot of people from Ohio in the Carolinas, but most people in Cleveland could give a rats a** about Charlotte.
Actually, I will give you a break. If that's how you interpreted my comment then, yes you are probably correct. But, what I meant was, much like the OP, people looking to relocate between the two cities. - not Clevelanders themselves. In that case, then yes, I hold to my statement that the vast majority of people would choose Charlotte over Cleveland.

Anyways, like I said, I am a former Buckeye. I have no intenton on bashing the great city of Cleveland. I have fond memories of the city, and to this day still thoroughly enjoy visiting any chance that I get.

What aggrevates me though, is people's innaccurate perception of Charlotte - and sometimes unjust hatred towards the city. I get so tired of reading post after post of urban dwellers from the north bashing this great city. Why does it occur? Because the buildings are new? Because it's in the south? Because it's white collar? Because it's made up of many transplants? Because it's booming? Why? I just don't get it. Even within the state of Ohio, Columbus enjoys the same unjustified hatred.

But, the problem is, when I read some comments on here, it tells me that people have no idea about what makes Charlotte tick - none!

It has no culture - How can a city made up of transplants, not only from other states, but numerous countries, not have any culture? Culture doesn't happen because somebody identifies a block of the city as Little Italy or Little Whatever. To me that's artificial. Culture happens from within the home, the community, the soul. Charlotte has plenty of that - plenty.

Charlotte is souless - It is? Why? Because our buildings are new? Because we don't have as many rough areas or ghettos (trust me - we have plenty)? Buildings don't give a city soul, the people do. Again, read what I stated above.

Charlotte is nothing but a bunch of strip malls (or as you said - our bars are in a bunch of strip malls outside of Uptown) - That comment always gets to me. That tells me one of two things: You have never been here or you haven't been here in a few years. Our downtown (Uptown) is booming - even in tough economic times. Our current downtown development is unparalleled by few cities across our country. Our street level, walking traffic at night, especially on the weekend , without an event, rivals many cities much larger in scale - including Cleveland.

Here's a couple of links that will validate my point:
EpiCentre

NC Music Factory

Again, I'm not bashing Cleveland. I stand by my earlier comment that it is much better than the national perception that it has developed. But, then again, so is Charlotte.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
1,954 posts, read 4,504,703 times
Reputation: 1817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhenaton06 View Post
Not sure what you're talking about here, but Uptown is ground zero for nightlife in Charlotte, even more so since the EpiCenter complex opened.



And the city of Charlotte itself is safer than the city of Cleveland (source). I do know that lately, crime has dropped (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/local/story/869520.html - broken link) sharply in Charlotte.

And of course, Charlotte is doing much better than Cleveland economically. I know the current recession will change the reality for both cities (probably more so for Charlotte than Cleveland), but it seems that Cleveland has been relatively economically stagnant for some time. In 2004, Cleveland's metropolitan GDP was $95.4 million, and in 2006 it was $101.6 million. Charlotte's was $94.3 million in 2004 and $114.1 million in 2006. And this is despite Charlotte having a smaller metro area population than Cleveland. I suppose this helps to explain in large part why, with all of Cleveland's advantages that you listed, the entire region (not just the city) is losing population. Even metro Detroit continues to add people, but Cleveland is moving in the opposite direction. What's up with that?


A few points:

1. I realize that Uptown is center of Charlotte nightlife (I have partied there), just as downtown is the center of Cleveland's nightlife. I was comparing the nightlife options outside of the city cores in my previous comment.

2. Yes, Cleveland's worst inner city ghettos are more dangerous than Charlotte's. Cleveland's crime is more concentrated to certain areas, where as Charlotte's seems to be more spread out. At least this is what the statistics would lead one to believe. I would rather have it concentrated so that I can more easily avoid those areas.

3. I can't argue with the grow aspect (economic or population), but who really knows what will go down in the future with the current state of things. I can only compare the current status of both cities. I'm sure Charlotte will continue to improve, but Cleveland has been diversifying its economy and is showing signs that it can move beyond its dying manufacturing economy that has hindered it for the last 3 decades.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:44 AM
 
Location: metro ATL
8,190 posts, read 12,326,275 times
Reputation: 2698
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Lakes View Post

A few points:

1. I realize that Uptown is center of Charlotte nightlife (I have partied there), just as downtown is the center of Cleveland's nightlife. I was comparing the nightlife options outside of the city cores in my previous comment.
In that case, we've got pretty decent nightlife options in SouthEnd, Dilworth, Elizabeth, and NoDa. So to say that it's all "bars in strip malls" isn't totally accurate in the least.


2. Yes, Cleveland's worst inner city ghettos are more dangerous than Charlotte's. Cleveland's crime is more concentrated to certain areas, where as Charlotte's seems to be more spread out. At least this is what the statistics would lead one to believe. I would rather have it concentrated so that I can more easily avoid those areas.
[/quote]

It's more or less like that here in Charlotte as well, although car theft seems to be a little more evenly spread out. You can check out this interactive map for incidents of crime throughout the city: Crime in Charlotte-Mecklenburg - CharlotteObserver.com (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/maps/story/869375.html - broken link)

Quote:
3. I can't argue with the grow aspect (economic or population), but who really knows what will go down in the future with the current state of things. I can only compare the current status of both cities. I'm sure Charlotte will continue to improve, but Cleveland has been diversifying its economy and is showing signs that it can move beyond its dying manufacturing economy that has hindered it for the last 3 decades.
I sure hope so. But it just seems like Charlotte, as well as other Sunbelt cities, can never get credit for the things that it has done right over the past few decades--mostly in the area of job growth and GDP growth--possibly because it is outpacing many of its Northern/Rustbelt counterparts in such areas.

Last edited by Akhenaton06; 08-05-2009 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 08-05-2009, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
1,954 posts, read 4,504,703 times
Reputation: 1817
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCbyChoice View Post
Actually, I will give you a break. If that's how you interpreted my comment then, yes you are probably correct. But, what I meant was, much like the OP, people looking to relocate between the two cities. - not Clevelanders themselves. In that case, then yes, I hold to my statement that the vast majority of people would choose Charlotte over Cleveland.

Anyways, like I said, I am a former Buckeye. I have no intenton on bashing the great city of Cleveland. I have fond memories of the city, and to this day still thoroughly enjoy visiting any chance that I get.

What aggrevates me though, is people's innaccurate perception of Charlotte - and sometimes unjust hatred towards the city. I get so tired of reading post after post of urban dwellers from the north bashing this great city. Why does it occur? Because the buildings are new? Because it's in the south? Because it's white collar? Because it's made up of many transplants? Because it's booming? Why? I just don't get it. Even within the state of Ohio, Columbus enjoys the same unjustified hatred.

But, the problem is, when I read some comments on here, it tells me that people have no idea about what makes Charlotte tick - none!

It has no culture - How can a city made up of transplants, not only from other states, but numerous countries, not have any culture? Culture doesn't happen because somebody identifies a block of the city as Little Italy or Little Whatever. To me that's artificial. Culture happens from within the home, the community, the soul. Charlotte has plenty of that - plenty.

Charlotte is souless - It is? Why? Because our buildings are new? Because we don't have as many rough areas or ghettos (trust me - we have plenty)? Buildings don't give a city soul, the people do. Again, read what I stated above.

Charlotte is nothing but a bunch of strip malls (or as you said - our bars are in a bunch of strip malls outside of Uptown) - That comment always gets to me. That tells me one of two things: You have never been here or you haven't been here in a few years. Our downtown (Uptown) is booming - even in tough economic times. Our current downtown development is unparalleled by few cities across our country. Our street level, walking traffic at night, especially on the weekend , without an event, rivals many cities much larger in scale - including Cleveland.

Here's a couple of links that will validate my point:
EpiCentre (http://epicentre-charlotte.com/live.php - broken link)

NC Music Factory

Again, I'm not bashing Cleveland. I stand by my earlier comment that it is much better than the national perception that it has developed. But, then again, so is Charlotte.
Oy Vey. I got myself involved in this mess! Ok, maybe I did take your 90% comment to mean something you did not.

Please take note that I did not bash Charlotte, just pointed out reasons I prefer Cleveland. I did not say it’s soulless in any of my posts, nor did I say it was all strip malls. Yes, there are areas where I feel like Charlotte is lacking, but just because someone criticizes an aspect of your city does not mean they blindly hate it. I think the reasons I pointed out for preferring Cleveland are valid. I also think a person who prefers a more urbanized city will not have Charlotte high on their list of places to live. To each their own.

I think a lot of Charlotte boosters catch crap because they beat there chest a little too much about their city's growth, and often transplants feel the need to bash where they came from to justify their move. I have seen this both on and off of this forum. I give you props for not being a Cleveland basher.

FYI: I have been to Charlotte and know what it's like. Uptown's growth is indeed impressive, the areas along Queens Road are nice, and I like the fact that they are pushing light rail - there, I said something nice.

One thing I cannot let slide is saying that Uptown is an elite downtown for metros its size - it's probably about par. San Diego, Denver, and Portland get that title. Uptown actually reminds me a lot of downtown Indianapolis, which isn't an insult BTW.

Last edited by 5Lakes; 08-05-2009 at 11:37 AM..
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Old 08-05-2009, 01:24 PM
 
Location: The Queen City
174 posts, read 354,643 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Lakes View Post
Oy Vey. I got myself involved in this mess! Ok, maybe I did take your 90% comment to mean something you did not.

Please take note that I did not bash Charlotte, just pointed out reasons I prefer Cleveland. I did not say it’s soulless in any of my posts, nor did I say it was all strip malls. Yes, there are areas where I feel like Charlotte is lacking, but just because someone criticizes an aspect of your city does not mean they blindly hate it. I think the reasons I pointed out for preferring Cleveland are valid. I also think a person who prefers a more urbanized city will not have Charlotte high on their list of places to live. To each their own.

I think a lot of Charlotte boosters catch crap because they beat there chest a little too much about their city's growth, and often transplants feel the need to bash where they came from to justify their move. I have seen this both on and off of this forum. I give you props for not being a Cleveland basher.

FYI: I have been to Charlotte and know what it's like. Uptown's growth is indeed impressive, the areas along Queens Road are nice, and I like the fact that they are pushing light rail - there, I said something nice.

One thing I cannot let slide is saying that Uptown is an elite downtown for metros its size - it's probably about par. San Diego, Denver, and Portland get that title. Uptown actually reminds me a lot of downtown Indianapolis, which isn't an insult BTW.
Fair enough.
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:21 PM
 
Location: RVA
2,418 posts, read 4,196,123 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue View Post
OMG, not another Pittsburgh based Charlotte basher. Listen, no matter how much you put down Charlotte, people are not going to start moving back to your city. Your city's day has already come and gone...

Link: In Depth: America's Downsized Cities #8 Pittsburgh - In Depth: America's Downsized Cities - Forbes.com

Oooooh, a Forbes list! The most recent one lists Charlotte as one of America's Emptiest Cities. Forgive me for not posting it.

To say people are not going to start moving back anywhere, much less somewhere getting more and more press (by the day) as an excellent place to live, is simply stupid.

Last edited by creepsinc; 08-05-2009 at 02:30 PM..
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:24 PM
 
Location: RVA
2,418 posts, read 4,196,123 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhenaton06 View Post
Actually, your worldview fails miserably. But this isn't the forum for that.



Another ad hominem attack. On my worldview this time! All because I insulted your hometown snake oil salesman, who doesn't like Jews and gays. I'm gonna go mope now.
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: RVA
2,418 posts, read 4,196,123 times
Reputation: 1195
I couldn't resist. Congrats, Charlotte! You're #15 (tied with Cincinnati) on a Forbes list!

In Depth: America's Emptiest Cities - Forbes.com

Last edited by creepsinc; 08-05-2009 at 02:42 PM..
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Crown Town
2,742 posts, read 5,993,966 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by creepsinc View Post
I couldn't resist. Congrats, Charlotte! You're #15 (tied with Cincinnati) on a Forbes list!

In Depth: America's Emptiest Cities - Forbes.com
That link you posted is regarding "real estate". Not too big a deal considering we're in a recession. But Pittsburg has actually made the “America’s most dying cities” list for some time. Population loss is a terrible problem your city has, with no signs of changing.

Link: Forecast predicts Pittsburgh population to fall 6.8 percent by 2025 - Pittsburgh Business Times:

As a sign of your troubles, Pittsburgh has lost so many African-American professionals in recent years, that your one and only Urban format station just closed down. I don’t know what’s sadder, that fact that a city Pittsburgh’s size only had one Urban format radio station to begin with, or the fact that its 2009 and now you have none at all….

Pittsburgh Radio & TV Online*-*WAMO Sale approved (http://www.pbrtv.com/blog/entry_1092.php - broken link)

More lost than gained in WAMO radio station sale
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: RVA
2,418 posts, read 4,196,123 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue View Post
That link you posted is regarding "real estate". Not too big a deal considering we're in a recession. But Pittsburg has actually made the “America’s most dying cities” list for some time. Population loss is a terrible problem your city has, with no signs of changing.

Link: Forecast predicts Pittsburgh population to fall 6.8 percent by 2025 - Pittsburgh Business Times:

As a sign of your troubles, Pittsburgh has lost so many African-American professionals in recent years, that your one and only Urban format station just closed down. I don’t know what’s sadder, that fact that a city Pittsburgh’s size only had one Urban format radio station to begin with, or the fact that its 2009 and now you have none at all….

Pittsburgh Radio & TV Online*-*WAMO Sale approved (http://www.pbrtv.com/blog/entry_1092.php - broken link)

More lost than gained in WAMO radio station sale
You mean there's no station playing awful commercial R&B music anymore? We'll survive.

How did this get to be about PittsburgH?

Yes, Pittsburgh is still dying. Faster and faster. That's why it was chosen to represent the US at a meeting of world leaders.


Meanwhile, over here in reality, the population loss is now slowing (natural population loss when the main industry in a town collapses and said town is reinvented as a totally different kind of city). The unemployment rate is the envy of most of the country. There's construction going on EVERYWHERE. We make some positive list or another every week (literally). And we were chosen to represent the country in front of the world as a city which has rebounded from truly awful economic/environmental devastation. Keep those eyes shut tight, and keep repeating what you want to believe. Whatever helps.

If only ignorance was physically painful.

And that list is also based on RENTAL vacancies. Once again, eyes shut tight and repeat whatever helps you feel smart.
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