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Old 03-29-2007, 12:23 PM
Status: "13 years on C-D" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Shallow alcove hidden from the telescreen
2,849 posts, read 9,933,816 times
Reputation: 1537

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPadge View Post
Eh, I recognize the value of a union, especially in harsh or dangerous working environments, but there's also an economic and productivity aspect to it as well.

(What follows is my recollection of stories I heard a decade ago. I don't know anyone personally involved and what I heard, was a retelling of the newspaper stories from residents, so take this with a grain of salt.)

There use to be a GE Medium Transformer plant in Rome, GA. The Union walked out of negotiations with Management, even after Management had capitulated on most of the talking points. Management negotiators warned the Union not to strike. The Union decided they weren't too concerned with what the negotiators were warning about, and the went on strike.

Upper Management heard the news, looked at the plant's payroll, QA and job completion records and the same data from their Mexico plant. The Mexican plant won on all counts other than transportation costs. Upper Management closed the Rome plant.

The Management Negotiators had offered 90% of what the Union wanted, with the opportunity for more with performance improvements. The Union was greedy, gambled, and cost the workers their jobs.

(So I guess you were right, the Union empowered the workers to go find a new job... )
There certainly is merit in what you write. The unions have shot themselves in the foot before. (Who hasn't?) I don't know the details of the auto-worker issue you cite; maybe that 10% was the most important part of the negotiations and not greed (two-tier pay scales or severely slashed health or pension benefits, who knows...). But when it comes to competing with Mexican jobs, what can I say? What looks better to GM, a job costing $25.00 per hour or $5.00 per day? It's become a downward spiral of competing for the lowest paying jobs. I can't compete (which is one reason I've bowed out of the employer-employee game and now work for myself).

 
Old 03-29-2007, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 23,804,398 times
Reputation: 4901
No union can save your high-paid job in a global market. You need to attack the problem at it's source, overpaid top management and government regulations that prevent competition. Frivolous lawsuits sap valuable capital from businesses as well. We're getting our goods from countries with low-priced labor. While robots can't pick fruit and vegetables as fast as migrant workers, they don't drop anchor babies or overpopulate coastal cities. No one should be forced to work low wage jobs, ever! People who support illegal immigration are racists. They want others to do jobs they themselves are too good to do. This is disgusting to me.

I for one prefer U-pick where no illegals are needed. Would rather U-pick than pick from the supermarket.
 
Old 05-26-2010, 08:38 AM
 
1 posts, read 935 times
Reputation: 11
Lower wages is funny since the cost of living is so much lower in those states. Paying a union to price workers out of the workforce makes a whole lot of sense. Cr8 and goPadge, you don't have to look at old newspapers, just look at Detroit, and car companies. All the American citizens with and without living wages, and pensions get to pay for all those cushy union members to keep their bloated pensions and early retirements and medical plans that exclude them from the socialized medicine the rest of us will be forced into.
Of course it is only temporary, as this unsustainable mess will come crashing down here just as it is in Greece right now.
 
Old 05-26-2010, 04:24 PM
Status: "13 years on C-D" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Shallow alcove hidden from the telescreen
2,849 posts, read 9,933,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverinesegg View Post
Lower wages is funny since the cost of living is so much lower in those states. Paying a union to price workers out of the workforce makes a whole lot of sense. Cr8 and goPadge, you don't have to look at old newspapers, just look at Detroit, and car companies. All the American citizens with and without living wages, and pensions get to pay for all those cushy union members to keep their bloated pensions and early retirements and medical plans that exclude them from the socialized medicine the rest of us will be forced into.
Of course it is only temporary, as this unsustainable mess will come crashing down here just as it is in Greece right now.
The common misconception about Greece is that social spending caused their problem. That's half the picture. The other half is that government investments with players like Goldman Sachs turned out to be junk and tanked. Truth is, the U.S. is no less of a welfare state than any in Europe. The difference is that in the U.S. the benefactors of government spending are the rich. In most countries in Europe, government spending benefits middle and low income brackets to a far greater extent than in America.

As to unions, cushy pensions, etc., etc. If a race to the bottom is what we're after, where the cheapest worker wins, then I guess our future looks something like Haiti. The problem with that scenario is that the lower rungs suffer more and more while the wealth is siphoned off at the top. Cheap labor does not make for efficiency and competitiveness. It makes for more profit and riches at the top of the pyramid. Detroit did not fail because of the incomes and pensions of the workers. Detroit failed because of bad management. Blaming the workers, the poor and middle class is easy. Blaming the CEOs and unscrupulous investment banksters is unfashionable because there is a notion that they are smarter than the rest of us. They're not. They're greedier and care less about who they steamroll.
 
Old 12-15-2010, 12:30 PM
 
1 posts, read 766 times
Reputation: 10
Cool Not Right to Work States (forced-unionized)

help me out by listing what state are not right to work states
 
Old 12-16-2010, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Tower of Heaven
4,023 posts, read 6,437,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
Whatever those labels mean. What it means to normal working stiffs, at least in my experience, is respectively: low wages, no health insurance, and "burn 'em, turn 'em" job security vs. livable wages, the right to speak up without the threat of being fired, decent health plans, pensions, and more.

I would define it as, Right to Work - oppression; Unions - empowerment.
Wages are among the highest in Houston and Austin, and they are in a right to work state.This crap is a lie !
 
Old 12-16-2010, 03:07 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,969,835 times
Reputation: 6679
Some of the following might be a bit outdated.

Right to Work States | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation
The great divide: retro vs. metro ... - Google Books
File:Right to work.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Generally it looks like the Northeast states, the Great Lake states, and the Pacific Coast states are "not Right to Work." Although there are a few non-RTW states that don't fit those descriptions: Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, Kentucky, and West Virginia. I think Indiana has considered becoming "Right to Work." I don't think these sources were used before, but if so apologies.
 
Old 12-16-2010, 10:15 AM
Status: "13 years on C-D" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Shallow alcove hidden from the telescreen
2,849 posts, read 9,933,816 times
Reputation: 1537
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenaudFR View Post
Wages are among the highest in Houston and Austin, and they are in a right to work state.This crap is a lie !
Most likely exceptions to the rule. I still hedge my bets on non-right-to-work states and unions. Don't know about Austin, but Houston, the 4th largest city in the U.S., one of its big industries is oil. Can hardly make the case that this fits the model of some other right-to-work place, say Prescott, Arizona, in terms of what the average wage-slave can expect. Both right-to-work, but hardly the same.
 
Old 12-16-2010, 10:59 AM
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Location: Ohio
16,822 posts, read 33,219,532 times
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Sources that answer the question in the title were provided above in posts #3 AND #17, so the question in the title has been answered.

The question of whether workers should be required to join a union is not part of the original topic and is too controversial to be discussed in this forum. Please open a thread in Politics and Other Controversies or Great Debates or Work and Employment to discuss that issue.

I doubt that members will be able to resist the temptation to continue the (off-topic for this forum) discussion in this forum, so this thread is now closed.
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