U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-13-2010, 06:41 PM
 
Location: IN
20,846 posts, read 35,937,611 times
Reputation: 13287

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
With all due respect, GraniteStater? IMHO, you are proceeding from the faulty premise that if a state is "western" it must therefore follow it is not a natural part of an historica/cultural region which also consists of states "eastern."

Kansas is a "western" state. Texas is a "western" state. However, neither one are part of the same historical/cultural region with one another. And neither are part of the West of the the Mountain States/Interior Southwest.

The fact Kansas is western does not exclude it from being essentially a Midwestern state. I know for sure a lot of Kansans would disagree with that. Just as the fact Texas is "western" does not exclude it from being essentially a Southern state. Both are products of settlement from eastern parts of the respective regions.

On the other hand, the true "West" (roughly, the U.S. Census Bureau definition) is something altogether different from the Plains Midwest and the Western South.
I define the Midwest/West boundary by agriculture, climate, and culture. Those are the three big determinants when I classify an area. I also am quite familiar with the area since I lived there and have relatives in the rural part of the region.
Your point is correct regarding European settlement patterns a century to century and a half ago. Most came from the eastern part of the US or directly from Europe. They brought differing ways of doing things, but were mostly specialized in agriculture, ranching, or various kinds of industry. It has been stated by many that the northern Europeans brought certain traits to these agricultural towns that included: order, neatliness, and efficiency.

However, demographics and culture change over time. The western parts of the High Plains are western because I think they share less and less in common with the agricultural core of the Midwest. The core pull factors for most of the populace that resides there as well as media markets are all located to the West. Denver is a prime example of this phenonmenon as it attracts many white and blue collar people from Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, the Dakotas, New Mexico, and many other places. It is the largest metro that anchors an enormous geographic area. Therefore, it has an enormous sphere of influence. Rapid City residents look to Denver, Scottsbluff residents look to Denver, Hays residents look to Denver, Garden City residents look to Denver, etc.
Climatically, the area I mentioned in my previous post has nothing at all in common with the Midwest. Sagebrush and yucca are quite common, irrigation derived agriculture is prevalent, population densities are extremely low, and precipitation is quite sparse. Light industry and manufacturing is pretty much non-existant across much of the area as well.
I also think the eastern parts of the Midwest have a lot in common with the East as well. So, don't think I am singling out the areas in the West. My fundamental definition of the Midwest is that of the core region, and the areas surrounding it. That is the truest representation of the region.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-13-2010, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,563,690 times
Reputation: 3232
Rapid City also looks to Minneapolis-St. Paul. The city is almost exactly halfway in-between Denver and MSP. Rapid City residents, like those in the rest of South Dakota, have the Upper Midwestern culture common to Minnesota and North Dakota.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-13-2010, 07:27 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,110,365 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
I define the Midwest/West boundary by agriculture, climate, and culture. Those are the three big determinants when I classify an area. I also am quite familiar with the area since I lived there and have relatives in the rural part of the region.
Your point is correct regarding European settlement patterns a century to century and a half ago. Most came from the eastern part of the US or directly from Europe. They brought differing ways of doing things, but were mostly specialized in agriculture, ranching, or various kinds of industry. It has been stated by many that the northern Europeans brought certain traits to these agricultural towns that included: order, neatliness, and efficiency.

However, demographics and culture change over time. The western parts of the High Plains are western because I think they share less and less in common with the agricultural core of the Midwest. The core pull factors for most of the populace that resides there as well as media markets are all located to the West. Denver is a prime example of this phenonmenon as it attracts many white and blue collar people from Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, the Dakotas, New Mexico, and many other places. It is the largest metro that anchors an enormous geographic area. Therefore, it has an enormous sphere of influence. Rapid City residents look to Denver, Scottsbluff residents look to Denver, Hays residents look to Denver, Garden City residents look to Denver, etc.
Climatically, the area I mentioned in my previous post has nothing at all in common with the Midwest. Sagebrush and yucca are quite common, irrigation derived agriculture is prevalent, population densities are extremely low, and precipitation is quite sparse. Light industry and manufacturing is pretty much non-existant across much of the area as well.
I also think the eastern parts of the Midwest have a lot in common with the East as well. So, don't think I am singling out the areas in the West. My fundamental definition of the Midwest is that of the core region, and the areas surrounding it. That is the truest representation of the region.
All your points are well taken. And I understand and respect the way you classify an area/region.

But I still think you are overlooking (or else ignoring) the most important ingredient of all. That is, the self-identification factor. With all due respect, you seem to be a Midwestern version of what some of us from the South refer to as a "Deep South purist".

Let me come back and toss this one out: The vast majority of Kansans, Nebraskans, etc will self-identify with the Midwest and say they live in the Midwest and consider themselves Midwesterners. Not the West. Are you going to say they are wrong? And if so, why?

And by the way, I too have some experience in this realm. My fiance is from Colorado (the true West) and my ex (my kids' mother) is from Kansas. Both laugh at the notion either is part of the same regions. And laugh even more over that Texas is either one! LOL

In a nutshell, Texas is essentially the South, Kansas is essentially the Midwest, and Colorado is the true West.

You are correct that demographics have an affect over time, but in the instances we are discussing, the solid foundation for regional affiliation are not climate, terrain, or anything else superficially akin. It is strongly rooted in settlement patterns and the culture affecting...and how the natives perceive themselves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-13-2010, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Tulsa, OK, USA
31 posts, read 137,733 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
In this instance and on this topic? If you can't handle disagreement? Then don't start up the subject!
We were simply agreeing to disagreeing. Nobody lost or won. Just different opinions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-13-2010, 07:42 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,110,365 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer_22 View Post
We were simply agreeing to disagreeing. Nobody lost or won. Just different opinions.
Absolutely! If we all agreed with one another all the time, then it would get awful boring around these parts!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-13-2010, 09:37 PM
 
Location: IN
20,846 posts, read 35,937,611 times
Reputation: 13287
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
All your points are well taken. And I understand and respect the way you classify an area/region.

But I still think you are overlooking (or else ignoring) the most important ingredient of all. That is, the self-identification factor. With all due respect, you seem to be a Midwestern version of what some of us from the South refer to as a "Deep South purist".

Let me come back and toss this one out: The vast majority of Kansans, Nebraskans, etc will self-identify with the Midwest and say they live in the Midwest and consider themselves Midwesterners. Not the West. Are you going to say they are wrong? And if so, why?

And by the way, I too have some experience in this realm. My fiance is from Colorado (the true West) and my ex (my kids' mother) is from Kansas. Both laugh at the notion either is part of the same regions. And laugh even more over that Texas is either one! LOL

In a nutshell, Texas is essentially the South, Kansas is essentially the Midwest, and Colorado is the true West.

You are correct that demographics have an affect over time, but in the instances we are discussing, the solid foundation for regional affiliation are not climate, terrain, or anything else superficially akin. It is strongly rooted in settlement patterns and the culture affecting...and how the natives perceive themselves.
Yes, the self-identification of regional identity is an important trait to consider as well. I think it might also have to do with how well traveled an individual might be as well. I have traveled to many places and lived in a number of others so my geographical frame of references might be more varied as well. Another historical fact is that the Volga Germans (Germans from Russia) were a big settlement group in northwest Kansas, concentrating around Ellis County as well as the outlying areas. They brought with them a special variety of wheat that was adapted to the steepe climate, similar to what they had left in the southern part of Russia. If that group hadn't migrated to Kansas and brought along their agricultural knowledge I think Kansas would have even more western traits than it does today. (Think more ranching and less farming). The cornbelt region of Kansas only encompasses the northeast corner of the state, the polar opposite of Iowa where it is 100% cornbelt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-13-2010, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,366 posts, read 59,807,408 times
Reputation: 54006
Quote:
Originally Posted by go phillies View Post
Why is Ohio considered midwest? Geographically, its eastern. It borders on PA and NY.
Please consult a map before you post; also, try learning a little bit more about your own home state. Geographically, that is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2010, 12:08 AM
 
23 posts, read 46,303 times
Reputation: 27
Default End thread

The midwest is subjective.To some people Oklahoma is the midwest to some Oklahoma is as south as Alabama.To some Missouri is the midwest,to some Missouri is to far 'east' to be considered midwest. There is no right answer. There will never be an end to this debate. Can I get an amen
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2010, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,875,789 times
Reputation: 7732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
Florida is a plains state? How? because it's flat?
Um, yes. Were you absent from geography class that day, or did your school just suck?

Atlantic coastal plain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,372 posts, read 2,595,362 times
Reputation: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Please consult a map before you post; also, try learning a little bit more about your own home state. Geographically, that is.
ohio is as far east as florida. but i agree that it's midwestern.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top