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Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,084 posts, read 12,633,692 times
Reputation: 1973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around
Don't want to open any old wounds, but I have had doubts that Washington, Baltimore and St. Louis are 100% Northern, though. Houston? 100% Southern. Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso: Definitiely not Southern.
*Disclaimer*: These are my personal opinions based on my extensive travels as well as data such as Louisvilleslugger has provided.
Why did Houston strike you as 100% southern but not Dallas? What is it about Dallas that makes it definitely not southern? I'm curious because I've lived in both and both felt fairly southern (and 100% Texan) to me.
had for years and years before, doesn't mean that you can completely re-classify that area. Let's not forget that Virginia was home to extreme racial segregation less than 40 years ago, and that blacks could not eat, shop, live, and even attend school with whites. Virginia is home to Prince Edward County, which chose to SHUT DOWN its entire public school system, rather than integrate. If those facts do not associate Virginia more with the South than with the North, I don't know what does.
Miami was a city that no to long ago has extreme segregation, to the point where blacks and whites could not use the same beaches, stay in the same hotels, eat at the same restaurants, shop at the same stores, or go to the same schools. While areas south of Gainesville have expereinced international migration, many of them faced the same plight of Miami. Go to many historically black neighborhoods in Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Miami and you will find residents not only with southern accents, but who can tell you about the injustices they faced for many years.
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Let's not forgot the segregation of the North either. Boston and other northern cities had riots also. To the more present day, remember LA and Cincinatti? If I'm not mistaken, I read that the most segregated cities are northern cities. I know many black people in Alabama who moved north and said they were treated worse up there. They didn't have Jim Crow, but it was understood blacks were not welcomed in many areas.
I don't think a history of racism makes a place more southern. It was all over the US. People seem to forget that.
I most certainly agree that there was, and still is, racism all around the country. However, the level of race-based acts, such as the shutting down of an ENTIRE school district, and segregation to the point where it was against the law for blacks and whites to share the same facilities, and even inter-marry. While many blacks and whites did not attend the same schools in the North, and the quality of education between black and white schools was unequal, it was not against the law for blacks and whites to attend the same school. It was not against the law for blacks and whites to marry. It was not against the law for blacks and whites to shop at the same stores.
The primary reason why the people you know from Alabama likely said they were treated worse in the North, is because they likely had more interaction with whites, and therefore experienced more direct racism. Racism was often so ingrained in the culture of the South, that it was not uncommon for many blacks and whites, especially in rural areas, to rarely associate with one another, something that couldn't be avoided in the North.
I second that! Great job, Louisvilleslugger! (BTW, having been thru Louisville , I've never had any doubt as to whether it was Southern.)
Don't want to open any old wounds, but I have had doubts that Washington, Baltimore and St. Louis are 100% Northern, though. Houston? 100% Southern. Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso: Definitiely not Southern.
*Disclaimer*: These are my personal opinions based on my extensive travels as well as data such as Louisvilleslugger has provided.
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,084 posts, read 12,633,692 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
I most certainly agree that there was, and still is, racism all around the country. However, the level of race-based acts, such as the shutting down of an ENTIRE school district, and segregation to the point where it was against the law for blacks and whites to share the same facilities, and even inter-marry. While many blacks and whites did not attend the same schools in the North, and the quality of education between black and white schools was unequal, it was not against the law for blacks and whites to attend the same school. It was not against the law for blacks and whites to marry. It was not against the law for blacks and whites to shop at the same stores.
The primary reason why the people you know from Alabama likely said they were treated worse in the North, is because they likely had more interaction with whites, and therefore experienced more direct racism. Racism was often so ingrained in the culture of the South, that it was not uncommon for many blacks and whites, especially in rural areas, to rarely associate with one another, something that couldn't be avoided in the North.
The South enacted Jim Crow laws because there was a greater number of blacks living in the South and because blacks and whites were interacting with each other on a daily basis, hence the need for laws making it illegal for them to do so. Illinois had sundown towns and parts of Seattle racial restrictions in housing that were validated by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1926, remnants of a racist yesteryear. Racism has existed all over the U.S. De jure or de facto... the argument is pedantic when the effect is still the same.
it was not uncommon for many blacks and whites, especially in rural areas, to rarely associate with one another, something that couldn't be avoided in the North.
You are so very wrong.
In rural southern areas, whites and blacks associate very frequently. They live next door to each other, go to the same schools, shop at the same stores. The only way that I can think of them being segregated is church, and even that is fading. I know, because I grew up in a rural southern area that was about 50% black. Perhaps you're talking about a half-century ago?
In contrast, the rural north is overwhelmingly white, and the urban north is fairly segregated.
Basically, the idea that modern-day whites & blacks in the south interact less than whites & blacks in the north is absurd - roughly as absurd as your ascertation that Maryland and Northern VA are part of the south.
Why did Houston strike you as 100% southern but not Dallas? What is it about Dallas that makes it definitely not southern? I'm curious because I've lived in both and both felt fairly southern (and 100% Texan) to me.
Several reasons:
Houston has an almost sub-tropical climate vs. Dallas' very continental climate
Houston has bayous, live oaks and Spanish moss, more akin to FL and LA; Dallas is built on a vast plain, more like OK City and Wichita
Accents in Houston sound more Southern to me; in Dallas, more of a Western drawl.
Houston has a much larger establsihed black population, similar to Atlanta, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc.; Dallas fewer blacks, more Mexican Americans, more similar to San Antonio, Albuquerque.
Again, these are my personal observations, but I've lived in neither. houstoner, you have lived in both. I'm curious as to what differences you see between the two cities.
Several reasons:
Houston has an almost sub-tropical climate vs. Dallas' very continental climate
Houston has bayous, live oaks and Spanish moss, more akin to FL and LA; Dallas is built on a vast plain, more like OK City and Wichita
Accents in Houston sound more Southern to me; in Dallas, more of a Western drawl.
Houston has a much larger establsihed black population, similar to Atlanta, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc.; Dallas fewer blacks, more Mexican Americans, more similar to San Antonio, Albuquerque.
Again, these are my personal observations, but I've lived in neither. houstoner, you have lived in both. I'm curious as to what differences you see between the two cities.
Well I do have to correct you by saying that Dallas does indeed have a very established black population. In fact, Dallas proper has about the same precentage as us. Never really spent enough time in Dallas to really pay any attention to the other cultures, but the black culture in Dallas and Houston are pretty much about the same. Though, Dallas' might be a little more like Chicago. And Dallas has more blacks than Atlanta does.
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,084 posts, read 12,633,692 times
Reputation: 1973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around
Several reasons:
Houston has an almost sub-tropical climate vs. Dallas' very continental climate
Houston has bayous, live oaks and Spanish moss, more akin to FL and LA; Dallas is built on a vast plain, more like OK City and Wichita
Accents in Houston sound more Southern to me; in Dallas, more of a Western drawl.
Houston has a much larger establsihed black population, similar to Atlanta, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc.; Dallas fewer blacks, more Mexican Americans, more similar to San Antonio, Albuquerque.
Again, these are my personal observations, but I've lived in neither. houstoner, you have lived in both. I'm curious as to what differences you see between the two cities.
Not many. They're more alike than different. Even the heat feels the same. I grew up near Dallas and lived in the city for two years and many more in Houston. You can argue over the finer points all you want, but make no mistake you'll suffer from the heat in both cities. Hot is hot. I'd have to look up the numbers, but racial demographics in Dallas and Houston break down about evenly, if I recall correctly. There are sizeable, comparable black and Latino populations in both cities and have been for as long as I can remember (I'm 32). As far as accents it's hard to say because they vary. Southern accents vary greatly across the region, and Texas has its own regional accents as well. To me, Texas has southern (white and black), western (cowboy culture), and southwestern/Mexican influence. That's why I say as a state it's partly southern, but 100% Texan.
Last edited by houstoner; 05-15-2007 at 01:45 PM..
Reason: adding the Latinos
In rural southern areas, whites and blacks associate very frequently. They live next door to each other, go to the same schools, shop at the same stores. The only way that I can think of them being segregated is church, and even that is fading. I know, because I grew up in a rural southern area that was about 50% black. Perhaps you're talking about a half-century ago?
In contrast, the rural north is overwhelmingly white, and the urban north is fairly segregated.
Basically, the idea that modern-day whites & blacks in the south interact less than whites & blacks in the north is absurd - roughly as absurd as your ascertation that Maryland and Northern VA are part of the south.
I'm definitely not "so very wrong." If you read my post carefully, you would've seen that I said that during times of Jim Crow blacks and whites did not associate with each other on a regular basis. I am aware that those boundaries have definitely shifted now, and many whites and blacks who once didn't eat in the same restuarants, shop at the same stores, or attend the same schools, now do. Go to many rural towns in the South and you will see the blacks often live on one side of the railroad tracks, and whites on the other. There were often social institutions set up in both the white and black parts of town, preventing the need for whites and blacks to regularly interact. Sure, there were exceptions to this in some places, but this was largely the case through the Civil Rights period. I agree with you that integration has taken place, and many of the racial barriers were dropped in the years following the Civil Rights movement.
It is absolutely ridiculous of anyone to state that the entire state of Virginia is not in the South. Just because people would flip you off before they would wave at you, and because you're more likely to hear Spanish in some areas, as opposed to English, does not disqualify an area from being southern. I'm aware that there is an old-fashioned idea of what the South is about, but it's 2007, and many of those ideas are way outdated. Travel to Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Greenville, SC, and tell me if they still fit your idea of what the South is about. You're not going to catch drivers waving at you at they pass you on 285 in Atlanta, or while you're shopping at The Galleria in Houston. As little as 15 years ago, there were many long-time residents of Northern Virginia with a distinctly southern accent, at which time you would've definitely not contested the "southerness" of Northern Virginia. With some of your criteria, maybe we should say that South Florida is no longer part of the United States, because the majority of people in Miami and Dade County speak a foreign language.
I don't ever remember stating that I thought Maryland was a southern state, but I did say that there are many people from the Northeast who do. You can't even deny that some portions of Maryland's Eastern Shore are more reminiscent of Eastern North Carolina than they are of Delaware and points north. I admit that the Baltimore metro and points westward do not share many traditional characteristics of the South, but Prince Georges County and points eastward, do.
Some of you all need to change your ideas about what makes a place "southern." I predict in the next couple of decades those characteristics will be largely overshadowed by what areas like Northern Virginia, metro Houston, and metro Atlanta have become.
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to me.
