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Not to beat on a dead horse or anything, But just about everyone on this thread has acknowledged that Louisville and Kentucky are Southern and that was shown on the poll (when 23 or 85% of you stated it was Southern compared to 4 or 15% of people voting Midwestern) that was originally placed in the U.S. thread. Now since someone has switched the poll to the Kentucky sub forum within the last hours of the poll's 4 day life, over 20 votes unanimously vote Midwestern, bringing the Midwest to be the majority by 3%-5%. The sudden surge of votes does not correspond with the posts on the thread. By this I mean 95% of people that have posted on the thread say it's Southern and say they voted Southern and with the surge of votes unanimously voting Midwestern, not a single "voter" has posted a comment regarding why they voted Midwestern, unlike the people who voted Southern. Does anyone else find this fishy?
Last edited by Louisvilleslugger; 05-28-2007 at 10:02 PM..
Not to beat on a dead horse or anything, But just about everyone on this thread has acknowledged that Louisville and Kentucky are Southern and that was shown on the poll (when 23 or 85% of you stated it was Southern compared to 4 or 15% of people voting Midwestern) that was originally placed in the U.S. thread. Now since someone has switched the poll to the Kentucky sub forum within the last hours of the poll's 4 day life, over 20 votes unanimously vote Midwestern, bringing the Midwest to be the majority by 3%-5%. The sudden surge of votes does this not correspond with the posts on the thread. By this I mean 95% of people say it's Southern and say they voted Southern and with the surge of votes unanimously voting Midwestern, not a single "voter" has posted a comment regarding why they voted Midwestern, unlike the people who voted Southern. Does anyone else find this fishy?
I find it very fishy. Why would someone go out of their way to skew the poll so that it only seems like Louisville is not southern, although it clearly is?
I suppose someone who has ties to Louisville requested the move. People just don't appreciate the South, that's all--and for all the wrong reasons. It's actually quite pathetic.
West Virginia did not allow slavery to my knowledge. They had no need for it and also from what I can find did not believe in it. There is no indication whatsoever that West Virginians were pro-slavery.
The southern half of Missouri IS THE SOUTH. And compared to the Southern states, the southern half of Missouri is VERY Southern. From the moment one crosses the Mississippi at Cairo into the flat, fertile floodplain of Missouri one realizes he is in Dixie. Sure, southern Illinois, Indiana and Ohio have southern influences, but not like anything like the southern character of Missouri. When you're in southern Missouri, you're in the South.
I traveled thru the Showme state last summer and let me tell you, I could swear I was in Mississippi. The hot, humid summers are more in line with the South than the rest of the Midwest. There was a Waffle House and Sonic at virtually every exit. And both Springfield and Rolla could have been anywhere throughout the Upland South after stopping through.
Also Missouri is home to a sizeable population of rural African Americans, NOT UNLIKE THE SOUTH.
As far as St. Louis is concerned it is definitely a Midwestern city but it DEFINITELY has Southern influences too. While talking to some native St. Louisians along the way I did detect a noticeable twang, not unlike a hybrid Dixie city. I realize that St. Louisans pronounce for and far the same way for example, which is a Northern trait. But St. Louis has a climate, local vernacular of African-Americans, and overall vibe similar to other hybrid Dixie cities like Baltimore, Cincinnati, Louisville, Oklahoma City, and Wilmington.
It's almost as if certain people are ashamed of Dixie. I lived in South Carolina and LOVED IT. There's nothing wrong with the South but in some places, you'd swear that having anything to do with the South was the mother of all insults, and South equals backwards, conservative, slow, and less desireable than "elitist" places.
DefaultAtlas, half of my family came from the "Little Dixie", which is hardly Dixie anymore and definitively the Midwest, and Joplin parts of Missouri and their accents were/are all pretty flat like the rest of the Midwest. You may have family from Missouri, which parts I'm not sure of obviously, but I have lived in this state over 20 years and everything you say about it is pretty downright false. Most of Southern Missouri with the exception of far SE Missouri is not Southern in culture, dialect, etc. As for the climate, Missouri is hardly Mississippi at all you are comparing it to a Gulf Coast state. Our weather far more resembles the Midwest than it does the South. Most of Missouri's weather is not much different from central Illinois, central Indiana, and central Ohio on down to the southern parts of those states. Your reasons for calling Missouri Southern are ludicrous. Waffle Houses exist in Ohio as far north as Cleveland in significant numbers, in much of Indiana, and Sonic is present in both of those states as well. Colorado is full of many Waffle Houses, yet is that a Southern state? Missouri is almost completely lacking in sweet tea. Every Southern state, including Kentucky, has sweet tea in almost all of the state. Indiana has sweet tea in restaurants other than Cracker Barrel as far north as west central Indiana. Most of Southern Missouri simply does not meet the qualifications of a Southern state. True "Southern slurs" are not heard until around Cape Gireardeau and Sikeston, around that latitude (excluding SW parts of Missouri at this latitude)..dialect maps clearly show much of Southern Missouri to lack the Southern speech patterns. Winters here are not warm or what I would call mild, especially in January. Historically much of Missouri averages 20 inches of snow per year and even Joplin and Springfield can get as much as snow as Louisville...they got 6 more inches last year! If you understood weather, maybe you'd see why. There are plenty more Missourians like me to contest your classification of Missouri being half-Southern. I, like Gsd353, have nothing against the South, I just don't see the Southern argument for Missouri having any relevance for most of the state. Far SE Missouri is where the Southern argument generally applies in every aspect. Until you can prove that the Ohio River flows into the Mississippi River above most of Missouri and that SE Missouri represents Missouri as a whole, I stand by my belief that Missouri is Midwestern. I can sympathize with Kentuckians. They claim their state is Southern, and outsiders tell them they're wrong. Most Missourians claim their state is Midwestern, only to be told they're wrong by outsiders. I just don't understand. It's like the residents of these states are doctors and the outsiders are patients telling them they don't know how to operate on people....like outsiders are more or as qualified to judge a state than its residents? Sure they can, their judgements just won't be as accurate as someone who has lived their whole life there. Missouri doesn't have any rural African Americans from what I've noticed, and if it does, they have to be relatively small in size I would think. Have yet to see even one! The only African Americans I have met in Missouri are either from St. Louis or Kansas City. Also, whatever "noticeable twang" you detected in St. Louis you must have imagined or you must have assumed because St. Louis has its own accent that that is what you called a twang. Yes it has its own accent but it's noticeably Midwestern...nothing about it to me seems to be "Southern." This is not a hybrid Dixie city LOL! It's solidly Midwestern. There is nothing Southern about St. Louis from what I can tell, Baltimore and St. Louis are nothing like Louisville. St. Louis goes MUCH better with Indianapolis than Louisville on any given day of the week. Louisville is a distinctly Southern city. It meets all the qualifications of Midwestern and is a part of the Midwest core. Go on imagining things. I've heard some understandable claims for Missouri being Southern, this one just is laughable.
Not to beat on a dead horse or anything, But just about everyone on this thread has acknowledged that Louisville and Kentucky are Southern and that was shown on the poll (when 23 or 85% of you stated it was Southern compared to 4 or 15% of people voting Midwestern) that was originally placed in the U.S. thread. Now since someone has switched the poll to the Kentucky sub forum within the last hours of the poll's 4 day life, over 20 votes unanimously vote Midwestern, bringing the Midwest to be the majority by 3%-5%. The sudden surge of votes does not correspond with the posts on the thread. By this I mean 95% of people that have posted on the thread say it's Southern and say they voted Southern and with the surge of votes unanimously voting Midwestern, not a single "voter" has posted a comment regarding why they voted Midwestern, unlike the people who voted Southern. Does anyone else find this fishy?
I do, considering a survey I found conducted by UNC had 70-80% of 200 Kentuckians identify themselves as Southern, with a sizeable portion of them being from each part of the state. All pools were residents residing there for 10 years or more and a significant sampling was handpicked out of every parts of each state in question. Louisville to me while not a Deep Southern city certainly fits the definition of an Upper Southern city much better than a Midwestern one, as does Kentucky fit the definition of Upper Southern far better than Lower Midwestern. The reverse I believe applies to Missouri...77% out of the state voted Midwestern over the 23% who voted Southern. I consider these surveys pretty reliable, they correspond well with the demographics of those states, and the dialect mappings and climate, etc. What surprised me is I had no idea how many Oklahomans consider themselves Southern! 70%! I guess it doesn't surprise me given as Texas and Arkansas make up the majority of its borders. I certainly wasn't expecting a majority Midwest vote there
I do not think that Missouri has a climate that is very similar to the Midwest at all. First, the average temepratures during the winter are usually much warmer than those found in the Midwest. The average high temperature even in January is near 40F in most parts of Missouri. In the Midwest core the average high temperatures in winter are much lower than that. Also, most areas of Missouri do not receive as much snow compared with most areas of the Midwest, especially areas near the Great Lakes. The summers in Missouri also last much longer than those in the Midwest and are marked by much more prolonged spells of very humid weather. Overall, most areas of Missouri do not really fit the Midwest climate, especially in terms of overall winter climate. With climate change occuring the overall climate of Missouri is also becoming warmer as well. Also, urbanization also affects the low temperatures experienced during the winter season because of the urban heat island effect. This is especially true on nights with significant snowcover, light winds, and an arctic airmass in place.
I do not think that Missouri has a climate that is very similar to the Midwest at all. First, the average temepratures during the winter are usually much warmer than those found in the Midwest. The average high temperature even in January is near 40F in most parts of Missouri. In the Midwest core the average high temperatures in winter are much lower than that. Also, most areas of Missouri do not receive as much snow compared with most areas of the Midwest, especially areas near the Great Lakes. The summers in Missouri also last much longer than those in the Midwest and are marked by much more prolonged spells of very humid weather. Overall, most areas of Missouri do not really fit the Midwest climate, especially in terms of overall winter climate. With climate change occuring the overall climate of Missouri is also becoming warmer as well. Also, urbanization also affects the low temperatures experienced during the winter season because of the urban heat island effect. This is especially true on nights with significant snowcover, light winds, and an arctic airmass in place.
You could be right about that I guess. But I still would have to argue that Missouri's climate is more "Northern" than that of the South. We get too much snow to be grouped in with the Southern states. I guess our climate could be considered something in between the Midwest and the South Plains? St. Louis' winters to me at least share more commonalities with that of Indianapolis and cincy than Louisville. I guess Southern Missouri could be considered warmer than the Midwest as a whole. The Northern half of Missouri I think fits in better climate-wise with the Midwest than the South. That's just my take on it. The rest I guess could be in-between...i dunno. What I can say our overall climate is not like any Southern state I'm aware of. Hot summers, cold winters with snow....Missouri gets everything. Maybe it's not as cold as the Midwest. But it's climate is way too varied and distinct and continental to be considered Southern I think, plain and simple.
DefaultAtlas, half of my family came from the "Little Dixie", which is hardly Dixie anymore and definitively the Midwest, and Joplin parts of Missouri and their accents were/are all pretty flat like the rest of the Midwest. You may have family from Missouri, which parts I'm not sure of obviously, but I have lived in this state over 20 years and everything you say about it is pretty downright false. Most of Southern Missouri with the exception of far SE Missouri is not Southern in culture, dialect, etc. As for the climate, Missouri is hardly Mississippi at all you are comparing it to a Gulf Coast state. Our weather far more resembles the Midwest than it does the South. Most of Missouri's weather is not much different from central Illinois, central Indiana, and central Ohio on down to the southern parts of those states. Your reasons for calling Missouri Southern are ludicrous. Waffle Houses exist in Ohio as far north as Cleveland in significant numbers, in much of Indiana, and Sonic is present in both of those states as well. Colorado is full of many Waffle Houses, yet is that a Southern state? Missouri is almost completely lacking in sweet tea. Every Southern state, including Kentucky, has sweet tea in almost all of the state. Indiana has sweet tea in restaurants other than Cracker Barrel as far north as west central Indiana. Most of Southern Missouri simply does not meet the qualifications of a Southern state. True "Southern slurs" are not heard until around Cape Gireardeau and Sikeston, around that latitude (excluding SW parts of Missouri at this latitude)..dialect maps clearly show much of Southern Missouri to lack the Southern speech patterns. Winters here are not warm or what I would call mild, especially in January. Historically much of Missouri averages 20 inches of snow per year and even Joplin and Springfield can get as much as snow as Louisville...they got 6 more inches last year! If you understood weather, maybe you'd see why. There are plenty more Missourians like me to contest your classification of Missouri being half-Southern. I, like Gsd353, have nothing against the South, I just don't see the Southern argument for Missouri having any relevance for most of the state. Far SE Missouri is where the Southern argument generally applies in every aspect. Until you can prove that the Ohio River ends above most of Missouri and that SE Missouri represents Missouri as a whole, I stand by my belief that Missouri is Midwestern. I can sympathize with Kentuckians. They claim their state is Southern, and outsiders tell them they're wrong. Most Missourians claim their state is Midwestern, only to be told they're wrong by outsiders. I just don't understand. It's like the residents of these states are doctors and the outsiders are patients telling them they don't know how to operate on people....like outsiders are more or as qualified to judge a state than its residents? Sure they can, their judgements just won't be as accurate as someone who has lived their whole life there.
First of all, it's DefaultAlias®.
Second of all, it goes both ways. I am not convinced that Southern Missouri is not Dixie. It might not be as Dixie as Mississippi, but it certaintly isn't Midwestern.
Ajf you honestly believe everything that I'm saying is false. Of course you aren't obligated to believe me but THE FACTS DO NOT LIE.
Missouri has much hotter summers compared to northern Illinois and central Indiana. Whereas a typical summer day in Chi and Indy might be 85 degrees and 50% humidity, it's usually 91 degrees and 60% humidity in St. Louis. Wanna know what the average high temperature in Tupelo, Mississippi is during the summer? 91. Look it up on weather.gov if you don't believe me. Indianapolis has not officially had a 100 degree day since 1988, when I first moved there. Has St. Louis gone 20 years without a 100+ day? Absolutely not. I wouldn't be surprised if they've had one already this year!
Missouri is completely lacking sweet tea? LOL. I've seen sweet tea on the menu when I stopped at a Waffle House in Rolla. I eat at Nashville Waffle Houses regularly and not all of them have sweet tea, although most do. And Indianapolis and Chicago both have Waffle Houses, but no sweet tea to be found. I'm pretty sure you can walk into a Miami Waffle House and get sweet tea there.
I'll agree that southeast Missoura is more dixified than southwest Missouri, but both are still fairly Dixie nonetheless.
St. Louis might be Catholic and "liberal", but it represents only a very tiny fraction of Missouri. Baptists dominate throughout ALL of Missouri. Missouri is a fairly conservative state but that is irrelevant because northern states can be conservative like their southern counterparts: see Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio
Ajf if you take a look at this dialect map you will clearly see that region 17, SOUTH MIDLAND dialect, encroaches along the southern half of Missouri. There's even a small region in extreme southern Missouri with Ozark influences. Now tell me that's Midwestern.
See? This map agrees too:
And yet another:
Last edited by DefaultAlias; 05-28-2007 at 11:57 PM..
St. Louis' winters to me at least share more commonalities with that of Indianapolis and cincy than Louisville. I guess Southern Missouri could be considered warmer than the Midwest as a whole. The Northern half of Missouri I think fits in better climate-wise with the Midwest than the South. That's just my take on it. The rest I guess could be in-between...i dunno. What I can say our overall climate is not like any Southern state I'm aware of. Hot summers, cold winters with snow....Missouri gets everything. Maybe it's not as cold as the Midwest. But it's climate is way too varied and distinct and continental to be considered Southern I think, plain and simple.
Average snowfall Indianapolis: 28 inches
Average snowfall St. Louis: 14 inches
Average snowfall Louisville: 10 inches
Average summer high/low Indianapolis: 85/65
Average summer high/low St. Louis: 91/71
Average summer high/low Louisville: 87/70
Average winter high/low Indianapolis: 34/16
Average winter high/low St. Louis: 38/22
Average winter high/low Louisville: 40/24
Now you tell me which two locations have the most similar climate.
That was just as I suspected. The overall climate of St. Louis is more like Louisville than Indianapolis by far. Maybe its because Indianapolis is more solidly in the Midwest Core In terms of average temperatures Chicago, Des Moines, Grand Rapids, Milwaukee, and Cedar Rapids all have much lower average winter temperatures than St. Louis does. Also, these cities have shorter and cooler summers as well. Many types of pine and spruce trees do not grow very well in St. Louis and Kansas City compared with areas in the Midwest core. The pine and spruce trees reach much greater heights in the Great Lakes region and Upper Midwest as well. Another reason that St. Louis and KC have warmer average temperatures in the winter season is that downslope winds can develop off of the Rocky Mountains and high plains. When these winds come from the west in the winter the air dries out and warms up more quickly. The downslope compressional warming is more uncommon in the Midwest core and the Upper Midwest.
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Yes
In terms of average temperatures Chicago, Des Moines, Grand Rapids, Milwaukee, and Cedar Rapids all have much lower average winter temperatures than St. Louis does. Also, these cities have shorter and cooler summers as well. Many types of pine and spruce trees do not grow very well in St. Louis and Kansas City compared with areas in the Midwest core. The pine and spruce trees reach much greater heights in the Great Lakes region and Upper Midwest as well. Another reason that St. Louis and KC have warmer average temperatures in the winter season is that downslope winds can develop off of the Rocky Mountains and high plains. When these winds come from the west in the winter the air dries out and warms up more quickly. The downslope compressional warming is more uncommon in the Midwest core and the Upper Midwest.