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Old 05-29-2007, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Nashville
81 posts, read 220,500 times
Reputation: 49

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb123 View Post
agree with you....but for the record, chicago does NOT have waffle houses and I love waffle houses.
Yeah, that was a long time ago...I don't know what's up there now!

 
Old 05-30-2007, 01:13 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,745 posts, read 3,475,775 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefaultAlias View Post
The weather statistics that I used were averages from this past season. Older statistics are virtually irrelevant now, thanks to global warming.

I'm glad to see that you've done your homework. But just understand that I'm not here to convince you that half of Missouri is southern; you obviously are going to believe what you want to and stick with your opinion. I'm sure you're a grown man that uses good judgement--well, most of time anyway.

I'm just here to explain to you that I believe half of Missoura is in fact southern, and I'm here to explain to you why I feel half of Missoura is in fact southern. That's all.

And by the way, I can refute every claim you've made with three short words: Missouri had slaves. The prime cultural trait of the South, along with dialect. Any state that was not a free state is at least, in some part, Southern. Case closed.

I don't think this a pointless debate, and neither do you deep down inside. If it was, you've wouldn't have gone out of your way trying to convince me otherwise.

I'm going to get back to work now. Have a good day.
Why do I get the feeling that words are being stuffed into my mouth? I never denied St. Louis didn't get 100 degree weather. I can't believe that Rolla has sweet tea. I can tell you with absolute certainty that St. Louis has no sweet tea in its restaurants which aren't Waffle Houses or Cracker Barrels. If sweet tea is in St. Louis restaurants, I must be dreaming. I don't think half of Missouri is Southern. The MAson-Dixon doesn't run through the middle of this state, and honestly I don't hear too many DEFINITIVE Southern accents until I'm far down in the state. Some of the maps you use show most of Missouri to have the same dialect as over half of Illinois, Indiana,and Ohio, while others show us to have the same as Texas? Now I'm really confused. Pick one and don't give contradictory sources. I thought we already agreed that the Southern quarter of Missouri is where Dixie resides, and that Southern Missouri was a transition from midwest to dixie. Now you're claiming all of it's Dixie? I'm not sure what kind of message you're trying to send me. I've heard accents from Rolla. they don't sound too southern to me...unless having a mostly flat accent with a "slight" twang is considered the South. Maybe there is sweet tea in Rolla...Southern Indiana has it as far north as CLOVERDALE....between Terre Haute and Indianapolis and I know that for a fact because it was on the menu at a restaurant that was neither a Waffle House or a Cracker Barrel. Ohio has tons of Waffle Houses and Indiana has quite a bunch too now. It's a fact that overall Catholics in this state, even though there are a lot of Southern Baptists, are the dominant religion here. South Midland dialect is not considered a Southern attribute. How can you call it Southern when it's found in half of Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio. I don't see how Oklahoma and Texas speak like 50% of Missourians. I'm being more than reasonable and I just cannot see how 50% of the state sounds like Oklahoma and Texas. Why do no other dialect maps that I can find besides your's matter? And weather within the last 6 years DOES matter. you can't just dismiss the entire weather pattern histories. Missouri's antebellum history is irrelevant to what it is today....Maryland and Delaware had slaves too, but nobody considers them Southern. St. Louisans don't talk like Oklahomans or Texans....that much I know. That is really stretching the truth. You could point out Southern traits about missouri all you want...St. Louis is Midwestern to the core. If i have to go into details about why it's Midwestern I will. number one is that the city gained in black population during the Great Migration. there was some segregation here but not much. The Northern half of Missouri, St. Louis, Jefferson City, Columbia, and Kansas City are unquestionably Midwestern. That much is hard to disprove and most people living in these areas consider themselves Midwestern. Yes Missouri was a slave state, but slaves made up a small percentage of the population and the state was not pro-secessionist and many Missourians even began freeing their slaves up to and after the Civil War. There were a significant number of abolitionists in Missouri, particularly in St. Louis....so while this may have been a slave state opinions over it were divided. Missouri after the Civil War was an entirely different state. I don't think it can be considered dominantly Southern until around Cape Gireardeau. The Midwestern influence evaporates over 100 miles, not even close to outside the St. Louis metro area although the Midwest core does end a bit south of the central latitudes of Missouri....then it becomes more Southern the further you go. It doesn't feel strongly or predominantly Dixie to me until Cape Girardeau, and the Southern quarter like we mentioned earlier, though it feels less Midwestern and more Dixie the further south you go in between these areas. in all essence, the true and official Midwest-South boundary in Missouri is at Cape Girardeau. Unless DefaultAlias all of a sudden changed his own words, that's my understanding and belief from experience. I'm not afraid of Southerness, i just don't think the Dixie element is that strong in most of Missouri, and if I had to choose between only two options, the South or the Midwest, in which to group Missouri, I'd pick the Midwest. To be more specific regarding the percentage of Catholics in Missouri, while there are 24% baptist populations in Missouri compared to 20% Catholics. However, SOUTHERN Baptists are about 15% in the state. the remaining 9% are Moderate Baptist. I agree that this is a very high number of Baptists compared to other Midwestern states but the fact stands that Catholics are greater in numbers than Southern Baptists. I guess maybe this would be one area where I might say that yes views are divided. in any case, the Northern half including KC, Jeff. City, Columbia,and St. Louis always be Midwest no matter what people say. Illinois and Ohio rank much lower in percentage of Baptists than Missouri, yet they both contain greater numbers of Southern Baptists, one or both of them I forget which, than Missouri due to the fact that their state populations are much larger, and that parts of them are farther north than Missouri. Think I'm lying? Think again people. Southern Baptist Convention statistics

I will give that Southern Missouri is different from St. Louis, Jefferson City, Columbia, and KAnsas City, and the rest of the Middle-west core, which these cities are in fact in by Louisvilleslugger's own maps. How different is open to interpretation and opinion and also depends on where you are in Southern Missouri. i think I've said all i'm gonna say here. Btw...DefaultAlias, I'm still in agreement with you that Southern Missouri between the central parts of Missouri and the latitudes and Cape Girardeau is a transition from the Midwest to the South, and that you are in Dixie once below these areas, so don't get the idea that i'm disagreeing necessarily with you.

Last edited by ajf131; 05-30-2007 at 01:45 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2007, 01:40 AM
 
Location: Nashville
81 posts, read 220,500 times
Reputation: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
Why do I get the feeling that words are being stuffed into my mouth? I never denied St. Louis didn't get 100 degree weather. I can't believe that Rolla has sweet tea. I can tell you with absolute certainty that St. Louis has no sweet tea in its restaurants which aren't Waffle Houses or Cracker Barrels. If sweet tea is in St. Louis restaurants, I must be dreaming. I don't think half of Missouri is Southern. The MAson-Dixon doesn't run through the middle of this state, and honestly I don't hear too many DEFINITIVE Southern accents until I'm far down in the state. Some of the maps you use show most of Missouri to have the same dialect as over half of Illinois, Indiana,and Ohio, while others show us to have the same as Texas? Now I'm really confused. Pick one and don't give contradictory sources. I thought we already agreed that the Southern quarter of Missouri is where Dixie resides, and that Southern Missouri was a transition from midwest to dixie. Now you're claiming all of it's Dixie? I'm not sure what kind of message you're trying to send me. I've heard accents from Rolla. they don't sound too southern to me...unless having a mostly flat accent with a "slight" twang is considered the South. Maybe there is sweet tea in Rolla...Southern Indiana has it as far north as CLOVERDALE....between Terre Haute and Indianapolis and I know that for a fact because it was on the menu at a restaurant that was neither a Waffle House or a Cracker Barrel. Ohio has tons of Waffle Houses and Indiana has quite a bunch too now. It's a fact that overall Catholics in this state, even though there are a lot of Southern Baptists, are the dominant religion here. South Midland dialect is not considered a Southern attribute. How can you call it Southern when it's found in half of Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio. I don't see how Oklahoma and Texas speak like 50% of Missourians. I'm being more than reasonable and I just cannot see how 50% of the state sounds like Oklahoma and Texas. Why do no other dialect maps that I can find besides your's matter? And weather within the last 6 years DOES matter. you can't just dismiss the entire weather pattern histories. Missouri's antebellum history is irrelevant to what it is today....Maryland and Delaware had slaves too, but nobody considers them Southern. St. Louisans don't talk like Oklahomans or Texans....that much I know. That is really stretching the truth. You could point out Southern traits about missouri all you want...St. Louis is Midwestern to the core. If i have to go into details about why it's Midwestern I will. number one is that the city gained in black population during the Great Migration. there was some segregation here but not much. The Northern half of Missouri, St. Louis, Jefferson City, Columbia, and Kansas City are unquestionably Midwestern. That much is hard to disprove and most people living in these areas consider themselves Midwestern. Yes Missouri was a slave state, but slaves made up a small percentage of the population and the state was not pro-secessionist and many Missourians even began freeing their slaves up to and after the Civil War. There were a significant number of abolitionists in Missouri, particularly in St. Louis....so while this may have been a slave state opinions over it were divided. Missouri after the Civil War was an entirely different state. I don't think it can be considered dominantly Southern until around Cape Gireardeau. The Midwestern influence evaporates over 100 miles, not even close to outside the St. Louis metro area although the Midwest core does end a bit south of the central latitudes of Missouri....then it becomes more Southern the further you go. It doesn't feel strongly or predominantly Dixie to me until Cape Girardeau, and the Southern quarter like we mentioned earlier, though it feels less Midwestern and more Dixie the further south you go in between these areas. in all essence, the true and official Midwest-South boundary in Missouri is at Cape Girardeau. Unless DefaultAlias all of a sudden changed his own words, that's my understanding and belief from experience. I'm not afraid of Southerness, i just don't think the Dixie element is that strong in most of Missouri, and if I had to choose between only two options, the South or the Midwest, in which to group Missouri, I'd pick the Midwest.
I'll tell you what man--I'll post a map of what I'm trying to say; I admit I've been somewhat misleading.
 
Old 05-30-2007, 01:47 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,745 posts, read 3,475,775 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefaultAlias View Post
I'll tell you what man--I'll post a map of what I'm trying to say; I admit I've been somewhat misleading.
NOW THAT'S MORE LIKE IT! As I stated before, I am in agreement. That is the best and most accurate specific cultural definition of Missouri I have seen to date and it corresponds exactly to what I've observed and experienced, and also to what most Missourians will tell you. Wow...this map is a keeper....it really is. Thanks man! For all the defiance i've given about dixie, to be quite honest and I'm sure many on here would find this surprising ROFL, I am an avid fan of it and am actually considering retiring in someplace like North Carolina. Have family in Louisiana, that is an absolutely beautiful state and i love it down there. People are friendly, etc. it actually delights to me to hear sweet tea is now in Rolla. My father when he was growing up in Joplin said there was no sweet tea in Joplin...it has been making it's way further north apparantly, right along with the Waffle Houses and Cracker Barrels. significant portions of Southern Illinois and Southern indiana have sweet tea, well maybe just Southern Indiana. Cloverdale along I-70 in Indiana between terre Haute and Indianapolis does have it! Get off at the exit there and there should be a restaurant with it i was there two years ago. maybe sweet tea was in Rolla in the first place, i don't know....it's certainly been in Sikeston forever. Just a question...I've never been to the Waffle Houses in the STL area...do those have sweet tea? the Cracker Barrels i've been to in St. Louis and farther north in Springfield, IL do have it. Sweet tea has been for me at least hard to find outside of Cracker Barrels, and if Waffle Houses have them they will be just the second restaurants around here I've come across to sell it. Will have to see I guess. if so, then i'm gettin' me one later this weekend. hehehe...love sweet tea Just a little curious...why is St. Louis highlighted in green...just wondering since KC isn't marked on there...is it just to mark where it is?

Last edited by ajf131; 05-30-2007 at 02:04 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2007, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Nashville
81 posts, read 220,500 times
Reputation: 49
^^I highlighted St. Louis' to show its relative location to the regions with the green paint.

From what I recall, I'm unsure if the STL area Waffle Houses served sweet tea, although maybe they do at some locations and not at others. Just like here in Nashville.

And for the fun of it, I whipped up a bonus map:

Last edited by DefaultAlias; 05-30-2007 at 02:23 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2007, 02:22 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,745 posts, read 3,475,775 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefaultAlias View Post
^^I highlighted St. Louis' to show its relative location to the regions with the green paint.

And for the fun of it, I whipped up a bonus map:
Generally I agree with those too. I always thought the Northern parts of Kentucky between Louisville and Cincinnati seemed too Midwestern to be considered truly Dixie. The STL metro I guess yea in Illinois seems to be roughly on top of that transition in Illinois. i might draw the line a bit lower the STL Metro East but not a whole lot.those maps are generally as close to the truth as it comes.
 
Old 05-30-2007, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Nashville
81 posts, read 220,500 times
Reputation: 49
^^I suppose you're right after looking at the map; the Midwestern zone could be extended a hair or two further south

And extreme Southern Illinois and Indiana, like around the Cairo area is fairly Dixie...I saw some of those slash pine trees you find in the South driving along I-55 just before Cairo and they instantly reminded me of the South.
 
Old 05-30-2007, 03:00 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,745 posts, read 3,475,775 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefaultAlias View Post
^^I suppose you're right after looking at the map; the Midwestern zone could be extended a hair or two further south

And extreme Southern Illinois and Indiana, like around the Cairo area is fairly Dixie...I saw some of those slash pine trees you find in the South driving along I-55 just before Cairo and they instantly reminded me of the South.
Do you mean I-57? I-55 enters Missouri at St. Louis and then continues southward through Missouri until it enters Arkansas. I-57 bypasses STL 70 miles to the east in Illinois, goes through Cairo, not far from where I-24 begins, meets the eastern beginning of I-24, then it turns southwest and enters Missouri around Sikeston,where it meets and ends at I-55. I-57 begins in Chicago, heads almost due South through Illinois, passing through Champaign-Urbana, Effingham, Mount Vernon (73 miles southeast of St. Louis), then heads south to Cairo. A bit south of there is where it meets I-24. Then it veers southwest and crosses the Mississippi into Missouri right near where it meets the Ohio River, heads due west to Sikeston, then terminates at I-55. I-57 is the one in Illinois that connects you to I-24 to go southeast towards Nashville and Paducah. That's the one that goes through Cairo. I-55 goes the Missouri side...in any case yea you'd probably begin seeing those same trees around that same latitude in Missouri, though Missouri from what I've seen has more trees found in the Midwest and central hardwood forests...those are common throughout indiana, some parts of Kentucky, Illinois, and Ohio and much of Missouri. Northern Ohio, especially in Cleveland, features the Northern forests like Minnesota. Gotta love my little tree book. Sadly if global warming continues this book will become useless as the central hardwood forests where they currently are will become the Southern forests, the central hardwood forests will become the Northern forests where those forests currently are, and the Northern forests will spread further north into Canada from where they are now .... in any case, it wouldn't surprise me if Southern Missouri around Cairo's latitude began to feature Southern pine trees or magnolias. Southern Illinois around Cairo feels and appears a lot like southwest Kentucky. Where I-24 begins is VERY hilly and looks far different from the rest of Illinois.

Last edited by ajf131; 05-30-2007 at 03:23 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2007, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
13,500 posts, read 15,053,703 times
Reputation: 5093
Quote:
I-57 is the one in Illinois that connects you to I-24 to go southeast towards Nashville and Paducah. That's the one that goes through Cairo. I
The highway of hell. That is the most boring drive in America....besides I 70 in Kansas lol. When you are driving north towards Chicago and you see the mielage chart that says its 395 miles to Chicago, you immediately start to go in depression.
 
Old 05-30-2007, 11:21 AM
 
301 posts, read 997,231 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefaultAlias View Post
^^I highlighted St. Louis' to show its relative location to the regions with the green paint.

From what I recall, I'm unsure if the STL area Waffle Houses served sweet tea, although maybe they do at some locations and not at others. Just like here in Nashville.

And for the fun of it, I whipped up a bonus map:
It's okay, I feel however that places like Oldham county and Trimble county are more within the Southern range, along with a host of Eastern Kentucky counties. I basically feel that the area immediately influnenced by Cincinnati is a Midwest and Southern blend, or is just more Midwestern., But overall good
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