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Old 11-24-2007, 05:00 PM
 
Location: moving again
4,382 posts, read 15,336,643 times
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here's my point of view on Maryland:

Maryland was culturly, at one point, southern, but some northerern, so i think Maryland is formally 2/3 southern, with the other third being northern. Although, i think now, mabey 1/12 of Maryland is southern, not much at all. So Maryland is a formerly 2/3rds southern state, but now is pretty much the north

 
Old 11-24-2007, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 606,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
*observing with a grin* Yes, ajf, you have pretty much made it clear you don't consider Missouri southern! (I agree, by the way )



I can go along with this!
>>


So what about Branson? Or is that just country rather than Southern?

Some states are dichotomous that way, you talk of Virginia, there is fairly well consideration on this forum, fwiw about the Northern Va area DC difference. That by the way was just a geographic reference originally just like any state has a Northern part, had nothing to do with culture or transplants. It's always been a federal defense related area (Pentagon) to begin with that with the grow of DC itself pushes ever outward in a circular fashion and now much of the FBI facitilies are operating out in WVA as is other fed agencies and the training grounds are further south from DC OUT of NoVA.

Commuter trains into DC head from further and further South (Virginia Rail Commuter System) in Fredericksburg, Stafford and Spotsylvania counties, just as they do on the northern side of DC from Balto, and beyond the MARC trains.

There is a whole Eastern Va going further toward the Atlantic Ocean and Chesapeake Bay with nautical cultures. Some of that is shared with Maryland. Maryland however it's true is not hardly at all Southern anymore.
But Eastern VA which is coastal has also lost much of that but also never had too strong a Southern culture either (in the cities) for generations. Places like Va Beach are just well Florida and culturally non-descript due to Navy. Even the Outer Banks/NC it joins is all being affected differently today. Eastern Va is very influenced by other parts of the US just as Northern Va is. THere is still the brush with the Old South in border areas and parts known as "Southside Va", however.

What does it all mean? It's a matter of what a person considers themselves or their own idea of what a place is, those who are from a place and experience it see things differently than those from a distance.

I don't know either if some consider Southern synonymous with Country, because there are country music stations all over Jersey and outlying parts close to New York. PA is loaded with them from end to end. They are not Southern, however I've seen and often heard many say, "Between Pittsburgh and Philly lies Alabama". It's partly true, it looks it!!

Where's the biggest country music places, I'll bet Dallas is right up there with Nashville and Branson. But that, just speaking, certainly isn't limited to the South. But it's all about what you consider yourself mostly these days. Some cities within a state don't have much accent but other parts of a state do. I don't consider several parts of Va southern though others might, just as I would regard other areas or states with a label though others might regard them differerently. All depends.

Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 11-24-2007 at 06:45 PM..
 
Old 11-24-2007, 09:09 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,919,821 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
>>


So what about Branson? Or is that just country rather than Southern?

Some states are dichotomous that way, you talk of Virginia, there is fairly well consideration on this forum, fwiw about the Northern Va area DC difference. That by the way was just a geographic reference originally just like any state has a Northern part, had nothing to do with culture or transplants. It's always been a federal defense related area (Pentagon) to begin with that with the grow of DC itself pushes ever outward in a circular fashion and now much of the FBI facitilies are operating out in WVA as is other fed agencies and the training grounds are further south from DC OUT of NoVA.

Commuter trains into DC head from further and further South (Virginia Rail Commuter System) in Fredericksburg, Stafford and Spotsylvania counties, just as they do on the northern side of DC from Balto, and beyond the MARC trains.

There is a whole Eastern Va going further toward the Atlantic Ocean and Chesapeake Bay with nautical cultures. Some of that is shared with Maryland. Maryland however it's true is not hardly at all Southern anymore.
But Eastern VA which is coastal has also lost much of that but also never had too strong a Southern culture either (in the cities) for generations. Places like Va Beach are just well Florida and culturally non-descript due to Navy. Even the Outer Banks/NC it joins is all being affected differently today. Eastern Va is very influenced by other parts of the US just as Northern Va is. THere is still the brush with the Old South in border areas and parts known as "Southside Va", however.

What does it all mean? It's a matter of what a person considers themselves or their own idea of what a place is, those who are from a place and experience it see things differently than those from a distance.

I don't know either if some consider Southern synonymous with Country, because there are country music stations all over Jersey and outlying parts close to New York. PA is loaded with them from end to end. They are not Southern, however I've seen and often heard many say, "Between Pittsburgh and Philly lies Alabama". It's partly true, it looks it!!

Where's the biggest country music places, I'll bet Dallas is right up there with Nashville and Branson. But that, just speaking, certainly isn't limited to the South. But it's all about what you consider yourself mostly these days. Some cities within a state don't have much accent but other parts of a state do. I don't consider several parts of Va southern though others might, just as I would regard other areas or states with a label though others might regard them differerently. All depends.
Is that the best you can do? Branson? Branson is at the VERY bottom of the state The bootheel, Cape Girardeau, Branson and Sikeston and the bootheel and areas below would qualify as Southern. Altogether, this is not even 1/4 of the state. Springfield and Joplin are borderline cases...they are located in Missouri as well near the states of Kansas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. While they have clear elements of Southern culture present, they still have Midwestern, Great Plains, and their own unique elements to them, plus there are not a lot of Southern accents down there that I heard.
 
Old 11-24-2007, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 606,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
Is that the best you can do? Branson? Branson is at the VERY bottom of the state The bootheel, Cape Girardeau, Branson and Sikeston and the bootheel and areas below would qualify as Southern. Altogether, this is not even 1/4 of the state. Springfield and Joplin are borderline cases...they are located in Missouri as well near the states of Kansas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. While they have clear elements of Southern culture present, they still have Midwestern, Great Plains, and their own unique elements to them, plus there are not a lot of Southern accents down there that I heard.
Best can Do for what? Missouri is not a Southern state, but it has Southern areas you say, or are they country? Very midwestern people I've met from Moberly, Hollister way up North near Iowa, countryish sounding, I mean I don't care.
It's a reference point to deterimine if what people hear mistaken country for southern, when people in PA definitely can talk country as well as Ohio. N I wouldn't consider St Louis Southern, but I'd say Missouri is a blend for where it sits just like some East Coast states blend.

So what is unique about Missouri is it the French influence? I'm curious, it is rather unique it's so center.

I was trying to point out other things to whoever, not necessarily you about these die hard Dixie fans.

By the way I always said and thought the nicest people I usually ever occasionally have met before I ever went there were from that State and area. I used to say it anyway. Yes I'd say their temperament is MidWestern. Surrounding St Louis was beauriful in fall. Forgot you were from there.

I really don't know about Branson other than thru a person who came from that area and was real country sounding, perhaps not Southern, it's different. Kansas people are nice too and more open. I did learn in St Louis though they have a term for people from down that way back when I visited there. "Hoosiers" or something, and talked down about the Ozark peoples. Missouri is a big state, kinda shaped like Georgia which is the largest state East of the Mississippi. Must be a local insult to refer to it as Southern in any way.

Anyway I always thought people from Mo were "Show Me" people. But like their legendary Pres Truman they are more down to earth, than either Eastern or Southern. But sometimes you have to remember to an Easterner accents can sound similar like theirs to others.

People in the US can easily confuse the many English accents in England for Welsh and others. They don't take offense by newcomers however like here.

and the point again too is that Virginia Beach though in a "Southern State" is about as Southern as San Diego which is more like what it is and that state's largest city. Hardly any Southern speech and mindset of Orlando. You keep saying Virginia is so Southern, then why is Virginia Beach like San Diego, and that's the SE corner of the State one of the most Southern pts, while SW is more like your SW. Other people feel differently about their states like you do about yours culturally. No one apparently likes to have their state totally dismissed into a fixed label and regarded as one thing for others to suit themselves, cuts both ways.

Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 11-24-2007 at 10:14 PM..
 
Old 11-25-2007, 12:01 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,919,821 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
Best can Do for what? Missouri is not a Southern state, but it has Southern areas you say, or are they country? Very midwestern people I've met from Moberly, Hollister way up North near Iowa, countryish sounding, I mean I don't care.
It's a reference point to deterimine if what people hear mistaken country for southern, when people in PA definitely can talk country as well as Ohio. N I wouldn't consider St Louis Southern, but I'd say Missouri is a blend for where it sits just like some East Coast states blend.

So what is unique about Missouri is it the French influence? I'm curious, it is rather unique it's so center.

I was trying to point out other things to whoever, not necessarily you about these die hard Dixie fans.

By the way I always said and thought the nicest people I usually ever occasionally have met before I ever went there were from that State and area. I used to say it anyway. Yes I'd say their temperament is MidWestern. Surrounding St Louis was beauriful in fall. Forgot you were from there.

I really don't know about Branson other than thru a person who came from that area and was real country sounding, perhaps not Southern, it's different. Kansas people are nice too and more open. I did learn in St Louis though they have a term for people from down that way back when I visited there. "Hoosiers" or something, and talked down about the Ozark peoples. Missouri is a big state, kinda shaped like Georgia which is the largest state East of the Mississippi. Must be a local insult to refer to it as Southern in any way.

Anyway I always thought people from Mo were "Show Me" people. But like their legendary Pres Truman they are more down to earth, than either Eastern or Southern. But sometimes you have to remember to an Easterner accents can sound similar like theirs to others.

People in the US can easily confuse the many English accents in England for Welsh and others. They don't take offense by newcomers however like here.

and the point again too is that Virginia Beach though in a "Southern State" is about as Southern as San Diego which is more like what it is and that state's largest city. Hardly any Southern speech and mindset of Orlando. You keep saying Virginia is so Southern, then why is Virginia Beach like San Diego, and that's the SE corner of the State one of the most Southern pts, while SW is more like your SW. Other people feel differently about their states like you do about yours culturally. No one apparently likes to have their state totally dismissed into a fixed label and regarded as one thing for others to suit themselves, cuts both ways.
it's not a local insult it's just not true. A midwestern state can have southern elements to it. missouri isn't the only one with southern elements in its southern parts...the southern parts of illinois, indiana, and southern ohio also have southern elements to them. is it possible to be midwestern but have some southern characteristics, but still not be considered a "blend''? i think so. Water doesn't have to be 100% pure to be considered water, so why does a state have to be 100% midwestern to be considered midwestern? doesn't something 79% cut it? since when does the other 21% have so much significance? if water has this much dirt in it, it's still water. this argument is ridiculous, good-bye
 
Old 11-25-2007, 08:56 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,140,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spark240 View Post
Then there is Maryland, which voted overwhelmingly for Southern candidates (Breckenridge and Bell) in the 1860 election, and unquestionably would have seceded, except that federal troops, on Lincoln's orders, occupied Maryland's cities and imprisoned Maryland's legislators. The very first blood spilled in the war was when Massachusetts troops (ironically echoing the Boston Massacre) killed Southern-sympathizing Baltimore civilians who confronted them in the streets of that city. All this happened even before all of the eleven states has completed their process of secession; Maryland was unfortunate enough to be a small state on the very edge of the South. Even so, many Maryland men went south to join Southern armies in Virginia and elsewhere. Little Maryland, while under occupation, actually had more men in the field on the Southern side than did Missouri, Kentucky, or the official Confederate state of Florida.
The question of whether or not Maryland would have seceded had its legislature been able to hold truly free elections has been debated by historians, with both the "yes, it would" and "no, it wouldn't" factions making good cases.

There is no doubt that most Marylanders and their elected officials were very much opposed to the use of force to coerce the original 7 Confederate states (South Carolina thru Texas) back into the Union. And far as that goes, the first actual attack on Union troops took place in Baltimore and the Maryland state song (which was penned as a result of the incident) is unabashedly pro-South. However, that is not necessarily to say they would have joined up.

At one point, the Maryland legislature DID freely meet and decided NOT to secede. The flip side is that the meeting was held in a part of the state where unionism was very strong. BUT..going back the other direction, they passed a resolution calling for recognition of the independence of the new Southern Confederacy and that the "military occupation" of Maryland was a violation of the Constition. These strong statements would seem to indicate the gathering had a certain amount of freedom to act.

Later on, Lincoln ordered the arrest of "disloyal" members of the legislature to prevent their attendence at another gathering of the legislature which otherwise might have resulted in secession. And then still later, during state elections, federal troops arrested known Southern sympathizers at the polling places while granting furloughs to Maryland men in the Union army so they could vote. The result was an obviously rigged election which resulted in a new and solidly pro-Union legislature.

So really? There is evidence for both positions. Personally, I am inclined to believe Maryland would have chosen to remain in the Union. The reason being that the vast majority of its men in uniform fought with the Union (over 75%) and later, when the Confederates went into Maryland, hoping to rally support for its Cause, the result was very disappointing.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 606,153 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
it's not a local insult it's just not true. A midwestern state can have southern elements to it. missouri isn't the only one with southern elements in its southern parts...the southern parts of illinois, indiana, and southern ohio also have southern elements to them. is it possible to be midwestern but have some southern characteristics, but still not be considered a "blend''? i think so. Water doesn't have to be 100% pure to be considered water, so why does a state have to be 100% midwestern to be considered midwestern? doesn't something 79% cut it? since when does the other 21% have so much significance? if water has this much dirt in it, it's still water. this argument is ridiculous, good-bye

The same for Virginia, these days. WHen a Virginian is in Georgia, the Carolinas, Ala etc, they are called "Yankees". It may have yet a couple South characteristics viewed from some areas from a distance but regarded as Northern or NE from Southern views. Within it it is even viewed as North Eastern today (an exception with the W and SW mountain areas Appalachian part in the West (with WVA) or its SW part with TN, KY (is more Southern).

But the bulk of the population almost 8 million, 3/4 lives in its North to East and coastal corridor to the Atlantic ocean.
I see what you're saying now and it's the same thing other places with a predominance but some here don't want to accept that for other states.
.
Only in a few rapidly diminishing parts is Va still Southern and they are in the far West and SW. Overall it is far more Northeastern in culture and always its orientation, however the newer South in Raleigh, etc is reorienting it again.

Most southerners complain that Va overall isn't southern anymore. Coastal VA building nuclear submarines, and aircraft carriers and involved in aerospace hasn't been for generations involved in what much of the real South has only recently involved itself. As in your analogy there's a far cry difference between Roanoake or Bristol and the state's largest city Va Beach East to Dulles North, and that's where the population and weight of the state is.

As I originally posted it's about a state's dichotomies and as you have also pointed out and using your same reasonings is why Virginia today overall also is not a Southern state.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 37,502,933 times
Reputation: 3800
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post


Later on, Lincoln ordered the arrest of "disloyal" members of the legislature to prevent their attendence at another gathering of the legislature which otherwise might have resulted in secession. And then still later, during state elections, federal troops arrested known Southern sympathizers at the polling places while granting furloughs to Maryland men in the Union army so they could vote. The result was an obviously rigged election which resulted in a new and solidly pro-Union legislature.
On the other hand:

There some counties in Tennessee that tried to stay with the Union and the Rebels wanted no part of that.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 606,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
On the other hand:

There some counties in Tennessee that tried to stay with the Union and the Rebels wanted no part of that.

Thanks for reminding me that most all the assessments here seem to be centered around the Civil War and its furor, I had forgot that is what most here are basing their opinions on and am basing mine on the way it is today.

Such assessments based on the 1800s definitions seem as obsolete today as arguing whether AZ is still part of Mexico or not.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 10:54 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,140,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
On the other hand:

There some counties in Tennessee that tried to stay with the Union and the Rebels wanted no part of that.
This is true, but far as I know there were no official violations of civil liberties -- unlike in the Union -- by the Confederacy when it came to interferring with free elections. But anyway, as I said, my opinion is that Maryland probably would have remained in the Union regardless.

On a related tangent, there was "unionist" sentiment in ALL the states which eventually joined the Confederacy, even in the original 7 charter members (except perhaps for South Carolina). It was just a matter of degrees and, important to remember, the very real difference in SOUTHERN unionist sentiment, and true "northern sympathizing" feelings.

For instance, in Texas, when the general election was held over secession (as to whether or not to back the Secession Conventions decision to go out) about 25% of the population voted to remain in the Union. BUT...when the verdict was in, the overwhelming majority accepted the decision and became loyal Confederates. The reason being, of course, that most of those voting "no" believed secession, at the time the question was considered, would be "rash action" (as Gov. Houston put it). It didn't mean they were northern sympathizers. Texas was the only one of the original Lower South states to actually hold a referendum on the question, but given the legislative vote as to yea and nay in the other states, the same feelings and rationale undoubtably prevailed. For instance, the vote in Alabama was 61-39 in favor, which means about 36% were opposed. But obviously, as in Texas, that didn't translate into a pro-North feeling!

On the other hand, truly pro-North attachments were much higher in states such as Maryland...
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