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Old 11-25-2007, 11:00 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,117,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
Thanks for reminding me that most all the assessments here seem to be centered around the Civil War and its furor, I had forgot that is what most here are basing their opinions on and am basing mine on the way it is today.

Such assessments based on the 1800s definitions seem as obsolete today as arguing whether AZ is still part of Mexico or not.
Good point, STR, but you have to remember that to many Southerners (and I am one of them) the War Between the States and the Confederate experience has an influence that remains to this day in the realm of what can be considered "Southern." For instance, the official recognition of Confederate holidays, the presence of Confederate monuments on court house lawns, high school "mascots" and "fight songs" being "Rebels" and "Dixie" respectively, etc.

 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 604,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Good point, STR, but you have to remember that to many Southerners (and I am one of them) the War Between the States and the Confederate experience has an influence that remains to this day in the realm of what can be considered "Southern." For instance, the official recognition of Confederate holidays, the presence of Confederate monuments on court house lawns, high school "mascots" and "fight songs" being "Rebels" and "Dixie" respectively, etc.
Okay, but those traits can exist to some degree in some parts of states, but not in a state overall or in general. It's where the bulk of the population lives that defines it. Especially when it involves Eastern states on the border or who entered much later. These states were fractious then and much of the current arrangements grew out of it. I know the Eastern states and relatively little about those beyond on those lines. I can give you more info on that fwiw.

Those things you mention but with very minority exceptions in some inland parts don't really exist in the Eastern border states, some areas were Union held and more union like cultures developed. . In fact due to many protests people have had to abandon a lot of that paraphernalia as "racist". These things are very touchy in areas formerly considered the Northern South because of racial issues, especially in Va and MD in the East.

That's another argument if true or not, but some states even further South have had to change their state flags. Not to mention their state songs.

Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 11-25-2007 at 11:44 AM..
 
Old 11-25-2007, 11:56 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,117,165 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
Okay, but those traits can exist to some degree in some parts of states, but not in a state overall or in general. It's where the bulk of the population lives that defines it. Especially when it involves Eastern states on the border or who entered much later. These states were fractious then and much of the current arrangements grew out of it. I know the Eastern states and relatively little about those beyond on those lines. I can give you more info on that fwiw.

Those things you mention but with very minority exceptions in some inland parts don't really exist in the Eastern border states, some areas were Union held and more union like cultures developed. . In fact due to many protests people have had to abandon a lot of that paraphernalia as "racist". These things are very touchy in areas formerly considered the Northern South because of racial issues, especially in Va and MD in the East.

That's another argument if true or not, but some states even further South have had to change their state flags. Not to mention their state songs.
Yes, all true. And we may be even "talking past each other" here a bit. I am just saying that in using some objective (if it exists) criteria for defining the South (the thread "What Makes the South Southern?" is an example) then the legacy and influence of the Confederate experience is going to figure into it in a way that dates long after the War. So such must be taken into account, I think. That is to say, THOSE things, along with, yes, certainly, many others...

Last edited by TexasReb; 11-25-2007 at 01:04 PM..
 
Old 11-25-2007, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 604,456 times
Reputation: 36
[quote=TexasReb;2083210]
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
Okay, but those traits can exist to some degree in some parts of states, but not in a state overall or in general. It's where the bulk of the population lives that defines it. Especially when it involves Eastern states on the border or who entered much later. These states were fractious then and much of the current arrangements grew out of it. I know the Eastern states and relatively little about those beyond on those lines. I can give you more info on that fwiw.

Those things you mention but with very minority exceptions in some inland parts don't really exist in the Eastern border states, some areas were Union held and more union like cultures developed. . In fact due to many protests people have had to abandon a lot of that paraphernalia as "racist". These things are very touchy in areas formerly considered the Northern South because of racial issues, especially in Va and MD in the East.

That's another argument if true or not, but some states even further South have had to change their state flags. Not to mention their state songs. /QUOTE]

Yes, all true. And we may be even "talking past each other" here a bit. I am just saying that in using some objective (if it exists) criteria for defining the South (the thread "What Makes the South Southern?" is an example) then the legacy and influence of the Confederate experience is going to figure into it in a way that dates long after the War. So such must be taken into account, I think. That is to say, THOSE things, along with, yes, certainly, many others...
We are some, but several states up here have been so busy burying their SOuthern or Confed pasts that it might take but one more generation to find that it's all long forgotten. Still in areas and states where "Dixie" might have been strongest we might hear faint cries, but by and large it's hard being buried in myth and legend anymore. (Nothing like fighting wars by proxy those on the front lines might not like it so much). It depends on how much history overall a place might have, one of the 13 colonies can always look to its pre-Civil war experiences in how it played more important roles in creating the country from its colonial past and break from control of superpowers of that day, and celebrate its heritage in that fashion. Atlantic coastal areas with all the layers of history were different than where the Confed Capital was moved to Richmond from Ala, much of it even there has eroded. So they look more toward the original colonial capital at Williamsburg for culture rather than Confed before any capital was moved to Richmond to be better connected to its expansion and western counties from the coast. Shipbuilding was started by the English colonists at Jamestown, still remains strong to this day and there's more preoccupation these areas played during World War I and II and the Korean War, Vietnam, now the Iraq where the fleet goes out, than to pine about any Civil War past with the ironclads.

Still remains the only US state ever to elect a black governor for all people from afar care to reference it associated with the Confed South. Gov Wilder liked to say "we like to move on in Va". Can many other states, N,E,S,W say the same regarding their own racial problems? That was supposed to be a Southern 'trait', but soon the country found out that was not exclusively so, in a really big way.

Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 11-25-2007 at 01:32 PM..
 
Old 11-25-2007, 03:12 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,905,824 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
The same for Virginia, these days. WHen a Virginian is in Georgia, the Carolinas, Ala etc, they are called "Yankees". It may have yet a couple South characteristics viewed from some areas from a distance but regarded as Northern or NE from Southern views. Within it it is even viewed as North Eastern today (an exception with the W and SW mountain areas Appalachian part in the West (with WVA) or its SW part with TN, KY (is more Southern).

But the bulk of the population almost 8 million, 3/4 lives in its North to East and coastal corridor to the Atlantic ocean.
I see what you're saying now and it's the same thing other places with a predominance but some here don't want to accept that for other states.
.
Only in a few rapidly diminishing parts is Va still Southern and they are in the far West and SW. Overall it is far more Northeastern in culture and always its orientation, however the newer South in Raleigh, etc is reorienting it again.

Most southerners complain that Va overall isn't southern anymore. Coastal VA building nuclear submarines, and aircraft carriers and involved in aerospace hasn't been for generations involved in what much of the real South has only recently involved itself. As in your analogy there's a far cry difference between Roanoake or Bristol and the state's largest city Va Beach East to Dulles North, and that's where the population and weight of the state is.

As I originally posted it's about a state's dichotomies and as you have also pointed out and using your same reasonings is why Virginia today overall also is not a Southern state.
Now hold on a second...I'm not sure I agree with Virginia being more Northern than Southern today. Around D.C., yes, Virginia isn't Southern. But south of there, Southern elements are unmistakable. Virginia has the demographics of a Southern state, the landscape of a Southern state, southern accents dominate virtually more or less 3/4 of the state, its economy is Southern, it has most of the criteria of a true Southern state. plus, its overall climate is more or less Southern. Missouri is a different case...its demographics more or less mirror the rest of the Midwest, its economy is Midwestern, its landscape isn't Southern, like Virginia's is, its climate isn't what I'd call Southern, and Southern accents are quite uncommon in the state...plus it did not secede like virginia did, and was divided over the issue of slavery. It's politics certainly are not Southern either, and never really were to begin with if you look at all the presidential elections ever held during its existence. THe only reason that Virginia seems to be leaning more moderate these days is because of how badly Bush has managed to screw up in office. Missouri gets a pass from being classified as Southern, but not Virginia. Virginia is a Southern state with some Northeastern elements to it. but that's where I draw the line. Now, understand this my friend...I am not being hostile here....I'm thinking of our discussion as a debate, so if i've been coming across as hostile, I apologize. If the debate can't be settled, we can agree to disagree, and that's fine...we're two different people...we shouldn't be expected to agree on everything.
 
Old 11-25-2007, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 604,456 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
Now hold on a second...I'm not sure I agree with Virginia being more Northern than Southern today. Around D.C., yes, Virginia isn't Southern. But south of there, Southern elements are unmistakable. Virginia has the demographics of a Southern state, the landscape of a Southern state, southern accents dominate virtually more or less 3/4 of the state, its economy is Southern, it has most of the criteria of a true Southern state. plus, its overall climate is more or less Southern. Missouri is a different case...its demographics more or less mirror the rest of the Midwest, its economy is Midwestern, its landscape isn't Southern, like Virginia's is, its climate isn't what I'd call Southern, and Southern accents are quite uncommon in the state...plus it did not secede like virginia did, and was divided over the issue of slavery. It's politics certainly are not Southern either, and never really were to begin with if you look at all the presidential elections ever held during its existence. THe only reason that Virginia seems to be leaning more moderate these days is because of how badly Bush has managed to screw up in office. Missouri gets a pass from being classified as Southern, but not Virginia. Virginia is a Southern state with some Northeastern elements to it. but that's where I draw the line. Now, understand this my friend...I am not being hostile here....I'm thinking of our discussion as a debate, so if i've been coming across as hostile, I apologize. If the debate can't be settled, we can agree to disagree, and that's fine...we're two different people...we shouldn't be expected to agree on everything.

No Sale! on the Virginia part, I guess you missed the Eastern Va and coastal wrap up economy, Atlantic Home for the Fleet, World's largest naval base and the cosmopolitanism that creates, submarine building, or the Miami lifestyle of Va Beach. Similar economy except more pronounced tourism and recreation than No VA.

Interesting what you might consider its economy. I know there are sheepherders in the Blue Ridge somewhere but that's just a section but you're leaving out a lot of defense economy and /or knowledge based which is the largest economy in the state, besides tourism and corporate, for the sake of a few others that don't weigh in much. For whatever you suggest the income levels of the state often exceed the north and that is what is very uncommon with Southern states, it has NE levels in that, so therefore the industries can't be the same. It is more SE, NE is not a good measure but when talking about where something lies it's directional only. It's not too Southern either except in certain parts. Of course it isn't going to be the same climate as Missouri, Missouri is inland on a river and a few other rivers. Va has an Ocean, and an enormous Bay and many rivers. I don't think UVA or William and Mary would necessarily agree with your opinions.

Michener wrote about these cultures in "Chesapeake". All too often people express it as Northern to the South and Southern to the North. But it's just VA, it's govt admin system, it's a commonwealth like Massachussetts and PA, many of its laws, property and taxation policies, human rights, its constitution, its legal system, its legislation and representation system, et al are not at all like Southern states, its independent cities from counties. In addition it's set up more like Mass, human rights for anyone, you have to think of everything not just what grows in some parts of a place. It in places is siimilar to New England with common heritage as well as it does with NC and the gentry there. If anything it fairs better than NE states and better than most SE states. Some of those southern states were and still are having problems with very weird laws. States are run from their urban centers not sparsely populated country locales just as you've indicated about Mo.

So thanks but No Sale!! Cheers and regards, however.


Virginia has a diverse economy, with many federal and military employees in Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads, which have the world's largest office building and the world's largest naval base respectively

Virginia has the highest concentration of technology workers of any state.[31] Computer chips became the state's highest-grossing export in 2006, surpassing its traditional top exports of coal and tobacco, combined.[32]


As of the 2000 census, Virginia had the highest number of counties and independent cities (15) in the top 100 wealthiest jurisdictions in the United States based upon median income. In addition, Virginia tied with Colorado as having the most counties (10) in the top 100 based on per capita income.[25]
Seven Fortune 500 companies are headquartered in Northern Virginia, and nine in the Richmond area (most of which are within the city itself.) Only five metro areas in the country have more Fortune 500 companies than the Richmond area.[26]
Loudoun and Fairfax counties in Northern Virginia have the highest and second highest median household income, respectively, of all counties in the United States as of 2006.[2

Well-known government agencies headquartered in Northern Virginia include the Central Intelligence Agency and the Department of Defense, as well as the National Science Foundation, the United States Geological Survey and the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
The Hampton Roads area has the largest concentration of military bases and facilities of any metropolitan area in the world. The largest of the bases is Naval Station Norfolk.[29]
Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Best not be a NE state, nor even a Southern one.

Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 11-25-2007 at 05:46 PM..
 
Old 11-25-2007, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 604,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
Now hold on a second...I'm not sure I agree with Virginia being more Northern than Southern today. Around D.C., yes, Virginia isn't Southern. But south of there, Southern elements are unmistakable. Virginia has the demographics of a Southern state, the landscape of a Southern state, southern accents dominate virtually more or less 3/4 of the state, its economy is Southern, it has most of the criteria of a true Southern state. plus, its overall climate is more or less Southern. Missouri is a different case...its demographics more or less mirror the rest of the Midwest, its economy is Midwestern, its landscape isn't Southern, like Virginia's is, its climate isn't what I'd call Southern, and Southern accents are quite uncommon in the state...plus it did not secede like virginia did, and was divided over the issue of slavery. It's politics certainly are not Southern either, and never really were to begin with if you look at all the presidential elections ever held during its existence. THe only reason that Virginia seems to be leaning more moderate these days is because of how badly Bush has managed to screw up in office. Missouri gets a pass from being classified as Southern, but not Virginia. Virginia is a Southern state with some Northeastern elements to it. but that's where I draw the line. Now, understand this my friend...I am not being hostile here....I'm thinking of our discussion as a debate, so if i've been coming across as hostile, I apologize. If the debate can't be settled, we can agree to disagree, and that's fine...we're two different people...we shouldn't be expected to agree on everything.

Here's what the same source says about Missouri:
Missouri mirrors the demographic, economic and political makeup of the nation as a mixture of urban and rural culture. It has long been considered a political bellwether state.[5] It is a state with both Midwestern and Southern cultural influences, reflecting its history as a border state. It is also a blend between the eastern and western United States, as St. Louis is often called the "western-most eastern city" and Kansas City the "eastern-most western city." Missouri's geography is highly varied. The northern part of the state lies in dissected till plains while the southern part lies in the Ozark Mountains, with the Missouri River dividing the two. The confluence of the mighty Mississippi and Missouri rivers is located near St. Louis.[6]
Major industries include aerospace, transportation equipment, food processing, chemicals, printing/publishing, electrical equipment, light manufacturing, and beer.
The agriculture products of the state are beef, soybeans, pork, dairy products, hay, corn, poultry, and eggs. Missouri is ranked 6th in the nation for the production of hogs and 7th for cattle. Missouri is ranked in the top five states in the nation for production of soy beans. As of 2001, there were 108,000 farms, the second largest number in any state after Texas. Missouri actively promotes its rapidly growing wine industry.
Missouri has vast quantities of limestone. Other resources mined are lead, coal, Portland cement and crushed stone. Missouri produces the most lead of all of the states. Most of the lead mines are in the central eastern portion of the state. Missouri also ranks first or near first in the production of lime.
Tourism, services and wholesale/retail trade follow manufacturing in importance.

I can sure believe the part about the LEAD!! Just joking Keeping that sense of humor.
Missouri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 11-25-2007, 09:28 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,905,824 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
Here's what the same source says about Missouri:
Missouri mirrors the demographic, economic and political makeup of the nation as a mixture of urban and rural culture. It has long been considered a political bellwether state.[5] It is a state with both Midwestern and Southern cultural influences, reflecting its history as a border state. It is also a blend between the eastern and western United States, as St. Louis is often called the "western-most eastern city" and Kansas City the "eastern-most western city." Missouri's geography is highly varied. The northern part of the state lies in dissected till plains while the southern part lies in the Ozark Mountains, with the Missouri River dividing the two. The confluence of the mighty Mississippi and Missouri rivers is located near St. Louis.[6]
Major industries include aerospace, transportation equipment, food processing, chemicals, printing/publishing, electrical equipment, light manufacturing, and beer.
The agriculture products of the state are beef, soybeans, pork, dairy products, hay, corn, poultry, and eggs. Missouri is ranked 6th in the nation for the production of hogs and 7th for cattle. Missouri is ranked in the top five states in the nation for production of soy beans. As of 2001, there were 108,000 farms, the second largest number in any state after Texas. Missouri actively promotes its rapidly growing wine industry.
Missouri has vast quantities of limestone. Other resources mined are lead, coal, Portland cement and crushed stone. Missouri produces the most lead of all of the states. Most of the lead mines are in the central eastern portion of the state. Missouri also ranks first or near first in the production of lime.
Tourism, services and wholesale/retail trade follow manufacturing in importance.

I can sure believe the part about the LEAD!! Just joking Keeping that sense of humor.
Missouri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note that wikipedia also has a section covering the Little Egypt section of Illinois which has Southern cultural influences to it, and Southern Indiana also unquestionably has many Southern cultural influences, as do parts of Southern Ohio. On top of this, Missouri's economy and agriculture is more or less MIDWESTERN products....it should be noted that the other three states have lead mining in their southern parts...and additionally, each state in a region produces something that makes them unique. as far as it being a border state today, so far there is not much of an argument to be made here. It is historically a border state...but history doesn't dictate what a state is today. What I see you trying to do is effectively say Virginia isn't Southern anymore....I must first-off say that you would be met with a lot of resistance from other Virginians...try telling the people of Southwest Virginia that they are Northeasterners. Virginia has virtually nothing Northeastern about it. A mixture of urban and rural culture? That's kind of a general statement....what states don't have a mix of urban and rural culture? How does that set it apart from other Midwestern states? This debate is rapidly going nowhere. Another thing to note...Ohio is another notable bellwether state/swing state. None of the characteristics this article poses really give a lot of ground to what you're trying to prove. In the end, any way that you slice it, Missouri I think still ultimately fits best with the Midwest. Also, if Missouri has an eastern and western blend to it, so do the states due north and south of it. Virginia when I was there several years ago seemed pretty Southern to me. The food cuisine, the speech patterns, the landscape, the feel....Virginia has a Southern feel to it. I think it is safe to call it the uppermost Southern state. Missouri can be called the Southernmost Midwestern state. It's all a matter of opinion in the end. Here is another decisive factor...the University of North Carolina did a survey of what was the modern South....the majority of Virginians (and a decent number were interviewed), declared themselves Southern...in Missouri a mere 23% considered their communities Southern only 15% identified as Southern. This data was quite similar to Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. The majority of Virginians if I recall identified with the South. THis is the modern South.

Image:Southern American English.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that the Southern accent only resides in the far Southern parts of the state. Yes, both accents are present in Missouri. But it is relatively clear from this map that apart from the extreme Southern areas of the state, Missouri does not have a Southern accent...Lebanon, MO appears to be as far north as the Southern accent goes. Whereas with modern Virginia, the Southern accent cuts off just below D.C. From the dialect map, West Virginia appears to be a true border state, being divided 50/50. But Missouri clearly appears by a decent amount to not favor the Southern accent, while Virginia and Kentucky by a decent amount do favor it. There are too many different ways to argue this..but the one thing I can say without a doubt is that ANY two states from two different regions that border upon each other will have an overlap in culture. A Northern state bordering a Southern state is not immune to Southern culture, and vice-versa. To assume there is no overlap IMO is pure ignorance.
 
Old 11-26-2007, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills
129 posts, read 419,740 times
Reputation: 64
I think it's strange to talk about places that "used to be" Southern but aren't now. Does it not make more sense to speak of an evolution in what "Southern" is?

I mean, Ireland (for example) today has changed a lot from Ireland in 1850, but nobody suggests that its "less Irish." It's just that Irishness today is different than it was then... yet still inextricably linked to, and rooted in, the Irishness of the past. Like Southerners, the Irish have a strong sense of place and history, and the events of decades or centuries past are still relevant.

It's not Southerners who are odd for remembering our past. It's the other folks who forget theirs.

Last edited by spark240; 11-26-2007 at 02:04 PM..
 
Old 11-26-2007, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia,New Jersey, NYC!
6,967 posts, read 18,213,204 times
Reputation: 2641
VA is definitely southern
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