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Old 11-26-2007, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills
129 posts, read 419,791 times
Reputation: 64

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
On the other hand, truly pro-North attachments were much higher in states such as Maryland...
No. Maryland in 1860-'61 was solidly Southern in sympathy. Not 100%, true, but no state was, as you point out.

Moderator cut: link removed

"Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!"

In terms of a division of sympathies, the real "border" states were Missouri and Pennsylvania, with Missouri tipping to the South and Pennsylvania to the North. Maryland (and Kentucky) was as Southern as any.

Some relevant books...

Amazon.com: A Southern Star For Maryland: Maryland and the Secession Crisis: Books: Lawrence M. Denton

Amazon.com: Maryland: The South's First Casualty: Books: Bart Rhett Talbert

Last edited by Yac; 12-04-2007 at 03:09 AM..

 
Old 11-26-2007, 02:02 PM
 
Location: moving again
4,382 posts, read 15,326,863 times
Reputation: 1589
Quote:
Originally Posted by spark240 View Post
I think it's strange to talk about places that "used to be" Southern but aren't now. Does it not make more sense to speak of an evolution in what "Southern" is?

I mean, Ireland (for example) today has changed a lot from Ireland in 1850, but nobody suggests that its "less Irish." It's just that Irishness today is different than it was then... yet still inextricably linked to, and rooted in, the Irishness of the past. Like Southerners, the Irish have a strong sense of place and history, and the events of decades or centuries past are still relevant.

It's not Southerners who are odd for remembering our past. It's the other folks who forget theirs.

Moderator cut: link removed

"Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!"
Wow! great comparison, it makes very much sense
But the MD state song was probably written by somone who was southern, although you have to remember the state was completely split
but here in MD we do remember our history, but we're pretty northern today, but still do remember our history, its not just southerners that remember their history. Im proud of MD's history too

Last edited by Yac; 12-04-2007 at 03:08 AM..
 
Old 11-26-2007, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,054,873 times
Reputation: 1609
During the Civil War, Maryland was a state where literally brother faught against brother. Families were split on how they felt in many parts of it.
Today, because of immigration from other countries and from many northeastern states, Maryland aligns much more significantly with the northeast than it does the south. Voting and commuting patterns really emphasize this point.
It is odd though because many African-Americans have strong ties to the Carolinas and Virginia but many Caucasions have closer ties to Pennsylvania and the northeast.
Maryland is best summed up as a Mid-Atlantic state. I think that category is best because it links it to both the north and the south.
 
Old 11-26-2007, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills
129 posts, read 419,791 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonjj View Post
During the Civil War, Maryland was a state where literally brother faught against brother. Families were split on how they felt in many parts of it.
This was true in many states.

Some division of sentiment in states like Texas and Tennessee has already been mentioned. There was also a good bit of pro-Confederate feeling in New York City, probably having to do with that city's extensive economic relations with Southern partners. Newspaper publishers in Pennsylvania were putting out anti-Lincoln editorials. The country was torn up almost everywhere.

But it remains a fact that the overwhelming majority (91%, in fact) of Maryland voters in 1860 voted for pro-states-rights, Southern-identified candidates, and against Lincoln. It is also a fact that in 1861 the Maryland legislature was preparing to vote to secede, and they were prevented from doing so only because they were seized and imprisoned by federal troops acting on orders from Lincoln. The major cities and strategic points throughout the state were put under military occupation by troops from other states, while Maryland militia men and civilians left to join Southern armies.

The idea that the Maryland population was substantially divided is a fantasy.
 
Old 11-26-2007, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills
129 posts, read 419,791 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiam View Post
But the MD state song was probably written by somone who was southern,
Yes, James Ryder Randall was Southern. He was from Baltimore.
 
Old 11-26-2007, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,054,873 times
Reputation: 1609
Despite widespread support for the Confederate States of America among many wealthy landowners, who had a vested interest in slavery, Maryland did not secede from the Union during the American Civil War. This may be due in part to the temporary suspension of the Legislature by Governor Thomas Holliday Hicks and arrest of many of its fire eaters by President Abraham Lincoln prior to its reconvening. Many historians contend that the votes for secession would not have been there regardless of these actions. Of the 115,000 men who joined the militaries during the Civil War, 85,000, or 77%, joined the Union army. To help ensure Maryland's inclusion in the Union, President Lincoln suspended several civil liberties, including the writ of habeas corpus, an act deemed illegal by Maryland native Chief Justice Roger Taney. He ordered US troops to place artillery on Federal Hill to directly threaten the city of Baltimore. Lincoln also helped ensure the election of a new pro-union governor and legislature. President Lincoln even went so far as to jail certain pro-South members of the state legislature at Fort McHenry including the Mayor of Baltimore, George William Brown. Ironically, the grandson of Francis Scott Key was included in those jailed. The Constitutionality of these actions is still a source of controversy and debate. Because Maryland remained in the Union, it was exempted from the anti-slavery provisions of the Emancipation Proclamation (The Emancipation Proclamation only applied to states in rebellion). A constitutional convention was held during 1864 that culminated in the passage of a new state constitution on November 1 of that year. Article 24 of that document outlawed the practice of slavery. The right to vote was extended to non-white males in 1867.

---taken from Wikipedia
 
Old 11-26-2007, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,321 posts, read 2,747,558 times
Reputation: 1464
Quote:
the lower 2/3 of West Virginia
OMG, you guys are partitioning West Virginia again. I think you have undiagnosed Lincoln's Disease. There is a cure, but you have to take a shot.
 
Old 11-27-2007, 01:18 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,908,197 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by spark240 View Post
No. Maryland in 1860-'61 was solidly Southern in sympathy. Not 100%, true, but no state was, as you point out.

Moderator cut: link removed

"Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!"

In terms of a division of sympathies, the real "border" states were Missouri and Pennsylvania, with Missouri tipping to the South and Pennsylvania to the North. Maryland (and Kentucky) was as Southern as any.

Some relevant books...

Amazon.com: A Southern Star For Maryland: Maryland and the Secession Crisis: Books: Lawrence M. Denton

Amazon.com: Maryland: The South's First Casualty: Books: Bart Rhett Talbert

I don't agree with Missouri tipping to the South at all. Overall, it was a decisively pro-Unionist state. It was never pro-secessionist.

Last edited by Yac; 12-04-2007 at 03:07 AM..
 
Old 11-27-2007, 01:19 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,908,197 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by john_starks View Post
VA is definitely southern
Thank you
 
Old 11-28-2007, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,321 posts, read 2,747,558 times
Reputation: 1464
TexasReb
Quote:
For instance, in Texas, when the general election was held over secession (as to whether or not to back the Secession Conventions decision to go out) about 25% of the population voted to remain in the Union. BUT...when the verdict was in, the overwhelming majority accepted the decision and became loyal Confederates. The reason being, of course, that most of those voting "no" believed secession, at the time the question was considered, would be "rash action" (as Gov. Houston put it). It didn't mean they were northern sympathizers. Texas was the only one of the original Lower South states to actually hold a referendum on the question, but given the legislative vote as to yea and nay in the other states, the same feelings and rationale undoubtably prevailed. For instance, the vote in Alabama was 61-39 in favor, which means about 36% were opposed. But obviously, as in Texas, that didn't translate into a pro-North feeling!
TexasReb, you raise an important point here. People do not look into the mechanics and details of Secession. They look upon the South as a solid block of Secession, but every state was a totally different set of circumstances. For instance, in Louisiana, while the people were not allowed to directly vote on Secession, they were allowed to vote on anti-/pro- Secession delegates. The vote was 20,448 for Secession delegates, and 17,296 for anti-Secession delegates. And yet the Convention voted 113 to 17 in favor of Secession, despite the fact that about 45% of the voters were against Secession.

In my own part of the South, West Virginians voted slightly less than 2 to 1 against Secession, yet historians see that vote as a solid block of pro-Union votes, whereas the Louisiana vote is not. The facts are tailored to fit the results, particularly in the case of West Virginia.

I've been wanting to recommend a book to you, if you haven't read it already. It's available for free on Google Books, "Why The Solid South" by Hilary Herbert, et al, it covers Reconstruction but gives a lot of details you won't find in many histories, I was very surprised by the section on West Virginia.
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