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Old 11-28-2007, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
1,154 posts, read 3,964,878 times
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The Maryland state song was written by a Confederate living in Louisiana and was adopted only as a compromise between Confederate and Union vets. The Union got the flag - the first and fourth quadrants were the flag of some pro-union group from MD IIRC. The Confederates got the song. But there's a large group of legislators who would like to change the lyrics to the state song - so you can kiss those lyrics goodbye. Maryland is not a Southern state, and Pennsylvania sure as heck isn't a border state.

 
Old 11-28-2007, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
1,154 posts, read 3,964,878 times
Reputation: 702
Also, I'd like to point out that, out here in the Western US, Maryland and Delaware are almost universally thought of as Northeastern in nature. I don't really understand the Maryland being Southern arguments... if Maryland is Southern, then so are New York and Massachusetts. And I am originally from New York, and I am no Southerner
 
Old 11-28-2007, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills
129 posts, read 419,704 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMTman View Post
The Maryland state song was written by a Confederate living in Louisiana and was adopted only as a compromise between Confederate and Union vets. The Union got the flag - the first and fourth quadrants were the flag of some pro-union group from MD IIRC. The Confederates got the song. But there's a large group of legislators who would like to change the lyrics to the state song - so you can kiss those lyrics goodbye. Maryland is not a Southern state, and Pennsylvania sure as heck isn't a border state.
"some pro-union group from MD IIRC" ? You have no idea what you're talking about.

James Ryder Randall was in Louisiana at the time, because he had a job teaching there, but he was born and raised in Baltimore and always considered Maryland his home. He wrote the song upon hearing the reports the the military occupation of Baltimore, and the shooting of Baltimore civilians, by Massachusetts troops, an incident I have already mentioned.

As for Maryland's flag, although the present flag was not officially adopted until some years later, both the black-and-yellow Calvert colors and the red-and-white Crosslands colors were associated with the state before the War. During the War, some folks (in Maryland and elsewhere) saw red and white as "secesh colors," apparently on the rather simplistic basis that they were the colors of the American flag, minus the blue of the federal army (there are references to proposed Confederate flag designs using "as little of the hateful blue as possible"). Some Marylander Confederates used a red-and-white cross bottony as their emblem when serving with various Southern armies. However, there are also incidences of the combined Calvert and Crosslands pattern that would later become the official state flag being used in a Confederate context, so it seems that while blue may have been shunned by some, black and yellow were not a problem.

Last edited by spark240; 11-28-2007 at 09:16 AM..
 
Old 11-28-2007, 08:25 AM
 
2,248 posts, read 6,207,553 times
Reputation: 2078
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMTman View Post
I don't really understand the Maryland being Southern arguments... if Maryland is Southern, then so are New York and Massachusetts. And I am originally from New York, and I am no Southerner
Three words: Mason-Dixon Line.
 
Old 11-28-2007, 08:45 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,003 posts, read 102,592,596 times
Reputation: 33059
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
The 'South' is a state of mind; more than anything else. In many peoples' eyes; parts of Pennsylvania are culturally Southern outside of Philly and Pittsburgh despite it being tagged as a Yankee state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70 View Post
Now I will probably get a bunch of crap for saying this, but I am from Pennsylvania and I agree! PA is one wierd state. It has a border with Canada, in Lake Erie, and a border with Maryland, Delaware and West Virginia, three "border" states. The Mason-Dixon line separates PA from MD. People eat grits in the Pittsburgh area. I think it is really more Appalachian than southern.
The above conversation occurred a couple days ago. I still feel that way today. I grew up in the Pittsburgh area.
 
Old 11-28-2007, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills
129 posts, read 419,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonjj View Post
Of the 115,000 men who joined the militaries during the Civil War, 85,000, or 77%, joined the Union army....
---taken from Wikipedia
This is a very misleading figure. Figures like this, with some variation, are often repeated by those who wish to perpetuate the self-justifying Unionist mythology.

Let's review a little.

On April 15, 1861, Lincoln called for troops from every state that was not yet officially seceded. The quota for Maryland was 3,123. (At this time, Lincoln was under the impression that a total levy of only 75,000, combined with the small standing federal army, might be sufficient. It would eventually take more than a 1,000,000 soldiers to suppress the South.)

Not one single Maryland man was recruited for Lincoln in April. Meanwhile, genuine Unionist states were meeting, even sometimes exceeding, their assigned quotas during this time.

On May 3, Lincoln's called for a total levy of 500,000, for a period of three years, of which Maryland's assigned portion was 15,578. Of this theoretical group, no more than 9,355 were ever enrolled. The only group resident in Maryland that could be seen as enthusiastic Unionists were the German immigrant groups known as the Turner Societies, who had before the war constituted the tiny Republican Party base in and near Baltimore. (This base had mustered only 2,590 votes in Baltimore City [8,376 statewide] for Lincoln and Douglas combined, as opposed to 27,561 votes in the city [84,273 statewide] for states-rights candidates Breckinridge and Bell.)

During this same time period, Maryland men formed (of their own accord, without any formal call by any government) at Harpers Ferry as the Maryland Battalion, which later grew into the 1st Maryland Infantry Regiment of the Army of Northern Virginia. Simultaneously, an unknown number of Maryland men, but certainly some thousands, left their home state individually and in small groups to join many different Virginia units. These men are not counted as Marylanders in the official federal tallies.

By July 1862, with the war more than a year under way, Union losses already in excess of any pre-war imagining, and Maryland (from Lincoln's point of view) still not having met its 1861 quotas (even with the offering of enlistment bounties comparable to a year's pay for a tradesman), the draft was instituted. New quotas were announced, this time for conscripts. In the month of July, there were two separate calls for 300,000 men each, throughout the unseceded states, with Maryland being assigned proportions of these numbers as before. Some draftees were seized in their homes by federal soldiers and literally dragged into Lincoln's army; there are no reliable figures for what proportion of these deserted at first opportunity.

The real catch here, though, was that when a name was drawn as a draftee, the spot could be filled (and the enlistment of a "Marylander" recorded) by the appearance of a paid substitute, who may not necessarily have been a Marylander at all. Furthermore, some substitutes themselves promptly deserted, and were even paid again to enlist as a substitute for someone else. Thus, in some cases, the official roll may have shown the enlistment of several Maryland men where in fact only one substitute had ever shown up.

Finally, by 1864, black men, including escaped or liberated slaves from seceded states, were being enlisted for the Union. Because of the conflicts in the legal status of ex-slaves (even if the Emancipation Proclamation is accepted as legitimate on its own terms, because Maryland had not officially seceded, slavery remained legal there), as well as the often confused provenance of their journey to the point of enlistment, these men were recorded in enlistment rolls as if they were free residents of the state in which they enlisted. Thus, a former slave from North Carolina or Tennessee might end up officially enlisting in Maryland, yet it would be counted against a levy assigned to Maryland on the basis of the state's pre-war population of free men.

The bottom line is that the official federal figures on proportional enlistments tell us virtually nothing about Maryland's allegiances.

Sources:
Andrews, "History of Maryland."
Catton, "Reflection on the Civil War."
Clark, "Recruitment of Union Troops in Maryland, 1861-1865," from Maryland Historical Magazine.
Cunz, "Maryland Germans in the Civil War," also from MHM.
Denton, "A Southern Star for Maryland."
Gambrill, "Leading Events in Maryland History."
Hartzler, "Marylanders in the Confederacy."
Johnson, "Confederate Military History."
LesCallette, "Study of the Recruitment of the Union Army in the State of Maryland," M.A. thesis, Johns Hopkins.
Scharf, "History of Maryland."
Willis, "Presidential Elections in Maryland."

Last edited by spark240; 11-28-2007 at 09:52 AM..
 
Old 11-28-2007, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills
129 posts, read 419,704 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMTman View Post
I don't really understand the Maryland being Southern arguments... if Maryland is Southern, then so are New York and Massachusetts. And I am originally from New York, and I am no Southerner
In the 18th and 19th centuries, the eastern states were understood to constitute three regions. These were New England (CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME, although Maine was originally part of Mass., and Vermont claimed by New Hampshire), the South (defined since 1767 by the Mason-Dixon Line, which is the MD-PA border but also turns to separate MD from Delaware), and the "middle" states, which are left as New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware.

Obviously in this formulation the "South" is a lot bigger than one-third, but it must be remembered that, outside the port cities like Baltimore and Charleston, the land was sparsely settled and agricultural, and a lot was still unexplored wilderness. It made sense at the time to think of the whole great territory south of the Mason-Dixon as being comparable to the four-later-six little New England states. The siting of the federal capital in DC was a point of serious contention for some New Englanders who felt that New York City or Philadelphia was more appropriately considered the center of the country. And indeed, the new capital's location, surrounded by Virginia and Maryland, certainly played a role in Maryland's unhappy fate early in the War. If the federal capital had been in Philadelphia, Lincoln would not have been so urgently pressed to subjugate Maryland, Maryland would have seceded, and then who knows how things might have transpired...

Last edited by spark240; 11-28-2007 at 09:48 AM..
 
Old 11-28-2007, 10:54 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,115,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobilee View Post
TexasReb, you raise an important point here. People do not look into the mechanics and details of Secession. They look upon the South as a solid block of Secession, but every state was a totally different set of circumstances. For instance, in Louisiana, while the people were not allowed to directly vote on Secession, they were allowed to vote on anti-/pro- Secession delegates. The vote was 20,448 for Secession delegates, and 17,296 for anti-Secession delegates. And yet the Convention voted 113 to 17 in favor of Secession, despite the fact that about 45% of the voters were against Secession.

In my own part of the South, West Virginians voted slightly less than 2 to 1 against Secession, yet historians see that vote as a solid block of pro-Union votes, whereas the Louisiana vote is not. The facts are tailored to fit the results, particularly in the case of West Virginia.

I've been wanting to recommend a book to you, if you haven't read it already. It's available for free on Google Books, "Why The Solid South" by Hilary Herbert, et al, it covers Reconstruction but gives a lot of details you won't find in many histories, I was very surprised by the section on West Virginia.
You are exactly right in that often people do not look into all the details and differences involved with secession and the vote in each state (and by the way, thanks for the book recommendation).

The South could be defined in the realm of secession as three different "tiers". The Lower South stretched from South Carolina to Texas. This was where secessionist sentiment was strongest and reflected in the vote. But as in your example and the one I mentioned earlier concerning Texas and Alabama, even in these seven states there was some "Unionist" sentiment (save perhaps South Carolina). But of course, "Unionist" is often a confusing term and could have a variety of meanings. For instance, in the Lower South, it almost never meant "northern sympathizer" but rather those who simply believed that until the North attempted some overt act against Southern rights, then secession would be a mistake. Still, when the vote was in, the vast majority accepted the verdict and became loyal Confederates.

In the Upper South (Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas), Unionist sentiment was in the majority intitially, and all these states turned down secession until the war actually started and they had to choose sides. At that point, most Unionists switched positions and supported secession although a noteable minority joined the federal army.

Finally, the "Border South" (Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware) where Unionists remained in control and, although a sizeable number of men served in the Confederate Army (except for Delaware), most sided with the North in these states.

But point being, as you said, within each individual state of each different sub-region, there were different circumstances and votes.
 
Old 11-28-2007, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia,New Jersey, NYC!
6,967 posts, read 18,211,511 times
Reputation: 2641
Quote:
I don't really understand the Maryland being Southern arguments... if Maryland is Southern, then so are New York and Massachusetts. And I am originally from New York, and I am no Southerner
one word: Jessup. what northerner would've come up with that name for a town
 
Old 11-28-2007, 04:04 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,904,816 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
You are exactly right in that often people do not look into all the details and differences involved with secession and the vote in each state (and by the way, thanks for the book recommendation).

The South could be defined in the realm of secession as three different "tiers". The Lower South stretched from South Carolina to Texas. This was where secessionist sentiment was strongest and reflected in the vote. But as in your example and the one I mentioned earlier concerning Texas and Alabama, even in these seven states there was some "Unionist" sentiment (save perhaps South Carolina). But of course, "Unionist" is often a confusing term and could have a variety of meanings. For instance, in the Lower South, it almost never meant "northern sympathizer" but rather those who simply believed that until the North attempted some overt act against Southern rights, then secession would be a mistake. Still, when the vote was in, the vast majority accepted the verdict and became loyal Confederates.

In the Upper South (Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas), Unionist sentiment was in the majority intitially, and all these states turned down secession until the war actually started and they had to choose sides. At that point, most Unionists switched positions and supported secession although a noteable minority joined the federal army.

Finally, the "Border South" (Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware) where Unionists remained in control and, although a sizeable number of men served in the Confederate Army (except for Delaware), most sided with the North in these states.

But point being, as you said, within each individual state of each different sub-region, there were different circumstances and votes.

Kentucky is an exception here because Confederates took control of the state after the Civil War...other than Kentucky's stance towards the Confederacy, it's not lacking anything else that could classify it as being a Southern state. Its economy, industry, manner of speech, demographics, basically everything classifies it as Southern. Also don't like the term "Border South''...if they can be called "Border South," they can also be called "Border North"...they were border states during the Civil War, plain and simple. Kentucky sided with the Union only because the Confederacy aggressively tried to take it. And almost all of its soldiers were pro-slavery...abolitionism in KEntucky was practically unheard of. While Maryland may have been pro-secessionist at the time, it has since changed drastically. It is unquestionably part of the Mid-Atlantic today. Delaware and Missouri I don't think were ever definitively Southern. Missouri did a lot of controversial actions as a whole state prior to the Civil War....number one, it voted for Douglas...it should be noted that the only other state to do this was a Northern state, New Jersey. It had the typical slavery laws of a slave state, ,but it freed Dred Scott. Also, St. Louis was ultimately a pro-Union city. Missouri's economy and industry was also always pretty much Midwestern or unique to itself...no Southern crops of any kind grew here except in the far southern parts of the state. And the fact that the majority of its citizens fought for the Union despite the St. Louis Massacre speaks volumes. The bottom-line is that I don't think what a state was 150 years ago dictates what it is today unless it is still Southern. For that reason, Missouri belongs in the Midwest, Delaware and Maryland in the Northeast, Kentucky, the majority of West Virginia, and Virginia in the south.
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