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Old 12-01-2007, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 604,176 times
Reputation: 36

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tidewater50 View Post
That's what I'm saying. If you go to a city in a certain region, it's not going to reflect on that area. Cities have too many people from other parts of the country and world for that matter to seem like they're part of a certain region. The only people in Virginia who don't consider themselves southerners are people who moved here from up north. Everyone here that I know hates this immigration of yankees. We definately don't welcome or encourage it. They move here not knowing what it's like then they try to change the way things have been done forever. And the eastern two thirds of the state are very integrated, atleast as far as black/white. The only part of the state that doesn't have a significant black population is up in the mountains.
That's it the same everywhere and you're obviously outside the NE corridor.


the US Fish and Wildlife Service places VA in the Northeast region. Northeast Region, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Many species of pine that grow in the NE are "Virginiana"

http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/fia/datacoll...cies_Codes.pdf

U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service Northeast Newsroom

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/greatswamp/images%20resized/great_1.jpg (broken link)

Here's a photo of the Great Swamp in New Jersey.

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/greatswamp/_borders/index.1.jpg (broken link)

There are lots of swamps in the NE, marshes, salt ones, a lot of refuges are called Kills from Dutch rather than marshes and perhaps swamps in other places.
There are language differences from different settlers.
Plenty of swampy looking places on the Great Swamp Refuge site.

The Great Swamp Refuge is located in Morris County, New Jersey, about 26 miles west of Manhattan's Times Square.

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/coastal/Graphics/coastal_map.gif (broken link)

The EPA classif Va in Region #3 the Mid Atlantic. . Region 3: the Mid-Atlantic Region | US EPA

[SIZE=3]Region 3: The Mid-Atlantic Region[/SIZE]
Serving Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia


This MidAtlantic region includes VA to New York.

Also:
Deciduous forests are forests in which the leaves fall from the trees during autumn and early winter. Deciduous forests occupy most of the eastern half of the United States. Throughout the southeast, where soils are dry, the most predominant tree genera are oak (Quercus) and hickory (Carya). On moist soils throughout the northeast, the most predominant tree genera are maple (Acer), birch (Betula), beech (Fagus), and hemlock (Tsuga). Basswood (Tilia) is also common. Chestnut (Castanea) was common prior to the chestnut blight of the 1920s. There are no mature American Chestnut trees to be found from New York to Virginia today, which once was the common range. It is very rare to find a tree of enough size to bear fruit.


http://www.scsc.k12.ar.us/2000backeast/ENatHist/Members/CovingtonN/regional1.gif (broken link)


[SIZE=5]DECIDUOUS FORESTS
OF THE
EASTERN UNITED STATES[/SIZE]

The Mid-Atlantic states moving south to north, include, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. Common trees in this region include several species of oak, birch, maple, and hickory. There are also many species of lesser abundance. Examples are box elder, american holly, sassafras, and poplar. Many wildflowers thrive in deciduous forests in early spring and summer. Woodland sunflower, wild lettuce, may apple, and venus’ looking-glass are among a few.

 
Old 12-01-2007, 05:19 AM
 
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 604,176 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colts View Post
Mid-Atlantic I don't mind, it's that whole "Virginia isn't Southern" argument that I can't stand.

Sad? It's the best thing. I dont' think a lot of you inland folks understand that states in a region are even more connected by large water bodies than even land in a number of ways. The US govt and many other agencies and businesses have to do it a lot, to classify it outside the Southern region. These have a reason to be sad???


Northeast Region, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

Region 3: the Mid-Atlantic Region | US EPA
 
Old 12-01-2007, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,749 posts, read 19,950,499 times
Reputation: 2129
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuyTownRefugee View Post
That's it the same everywhere and you're obviously outside the NE corridor.


the US Fish and Wildlife Service places VA in the Northeast region. Northeast Region, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Many species of pine that grow in the NE are "Virginiana"

http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/fia/datacoll...cies_Codes.pdf

U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service Northeast Newsroom

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/greatswamp/images%20resized/great_1.jpg (broken link)

Here's a photo of the Great Swamp in New Jersey.

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/greatswamp/_borders/index.1.jpg (broken link)

There are lots of swamps in the NE, marshes, salt ones, a lot of refuges are called Kills from Dutch rather than marshes and perhaps swamps in other places.
There are language differences from different settlers.
Plenty of swampy looking places on the Great Swamp Refuge site.

The Great Swamp Refuge is located in Morris County, New Jersey, about 26 miles west of Manhattan's Times Square.

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/coastal/Graphics/coastal_map.gif (broken link)

The EPA classif Va in Region #3 the Mid Atlantic. . Region 3: the Mid-Atlantic Region | US EPA

[SIZE=3]Region 3: The Mid-Atlantic Region[/SIZE]
Serving Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia


This MidAtlantic region includes VA to New York.

Also:
Deciduous forests are forests in which the leaves fall from the trees during autumn and early winter. Deciduous forests occupy most of the eastern half of the United States. Throughout the southeast, where soils are dry, the most predominant tree genera are oak (Quercus) and hickory (Carya). On moist soils throughout the northeast, the most predominant tree genera are maple (Acer), birch (Betula), beech (Fagus), and hemlock (Tsuga). Basswood (Tilia) is also common. Chestnut (Castanea) was common prior to the chestnut blight of the 1920s. There are no mature American Chestnut trees to be found from New York to Virginia today, which once was the common range. It is very rare to find a tree of enough size to bear fruit.


http://www.scsc.k12.ar.us/2000backeast/ENatHist/Members/CovingtonN/regional1.gif (broken link)


[SIZE=5]DECIDUOUS FORESTS
OF THE
EASTERN UNITED STATES[/SIZE]

The Mid-Atlantic states moving south to north, include, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. Common trees in this region include several species of oak, birch, maple, and hickory. There are also many species of lesser abundance. Examples are box elder, american holly, sassafras, and poplar. Many wildflowers thrive in deciduous forests in early spring and summer. Woodland sunflower, wild lettuce, may apple, and venus’ looking-glass are among a few.


The biggest problem I have with that map is that Louisiana and Arkansas are placed in the SW.
 
Old 12-01-2007, 07:12 AM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
3,350 posts, read 5,952,969 times
Reputation: 3528
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
And go back to what? There is a reason I am happy that the South lost the war. The North was not much better than the South, but the South was trying to hold on to keeping slaves. It wasn't the only issue. I will agree that states rights and economics had to do with how the war got started, but all of that was intertwined with slavery. Don't tell that the slaves were happy to pick cotton and be "taken care of". I'm not buying it one bit. A person should be free and be considered human and not treated like cattle. The reason the South wanted to secede is so it could continue its efforts to profit off of free labor, involuntary labor in fact.
We've been conditioned to think that slavery was the only thing the south had in mind, but in reality, a very small number of southerners even owned slaves. Would the entire south have gone to war to defend a way of life that only a very few practiced? Did all of those northern troops fight the south because they were so magnanimous toward the slaves? Were thousands on both sides slaughtered merely to set the slaves free? Of course not. The war was about money -- keeping the south as an economic part of the union -- under the guise of a constitutional crisis. Lincoln said, in his own words, that he didn't care if the slaves were freed ... he was interested in "saving the union," and he'd do that if it meant freeing all, some, or even no slaves.

I've mentioned this in another thread, but it bears repeating, because this comes down to American history and the shaping of the nation. This was a difference of opinion that reached back as far as the Founding Fathers. The Jeffersonians wanted strong autonomy for the states; they didn't want a distant centralized government telling their states what to do and how to live. The Hamiltonians wanted a strong centralized government for the purposes of creating a unified, cohesive country that wouldn't splinter into 13 individual parts as soon as there was a disagreement.

The Jeffersonians won the first round with the Articles of Confederation. But the Articles made the central government so weak and ineffective that the member states couldn't get anything done collectively. So the next step was the Constitution. The Hamiltonians got their way, with a centralized government that could raise an army, collect taxes, coin money, and so on. But even then, the Jeffersonians wanted guarantees that the centralized government wouldn't trample on the states' rights to self-determiniation. That's where the Bill of Rights came from -- and specifically, the 10th Amendment, which says that all rights not explicitly granted to the federal government by the Constitution were reserved for the states and their people.

The south bristled as the north's power and influence grew. As the north became industrial and urban, the south remained rural and agrarian. Two entirely different lifestyles began to clash with each other. It so happened that one way of life involved the use of slave labor. Yes, it became a volatile political issue, but it was far from the only issue. But the north used it as its pretext for attacking the south ... much in the same way that our current administration used the threat of terrorism to justify invading Iraq.

Speaking of which, don't forget that Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and censored the mail and the press. The south felt more justified than ever in their decision to secede once things like that started happening. They felt they were fighting not only for political self-determination, but also to preserve the rights that our Founding Fathers fought for and enshrined in the Constitution. In their eyes, Lincoln was trampling on the Constitution. Again, not at all unlike what's happening today.

Of course, we all know what happened. The "union was preserved." But also, federal power grew enormously over the states, to the point at which secession could never be considered again. The Articles of Confederation may have been too loose to let a nation form, but now the pendulum had swung in entirely the opposite direction. States' rights were effectively a thing of the past, and the federal government called the shots. With Lincoln, the Hamiltonians finally won.

Look, nobody today defends what the south did, keeping humans imprisoned for free labor. But slavery was once just as common in the northern states, even into New England. The north had just gotten rid of it before the south did. It would have eventually ended in the south, as the industrial revolution brought easier, cheaper means of planting and cultivating crops to the southern states. The Civil War simply ended slavery a little bit sooner than if it would have died out on its own. But in terms of what happened to small, Jeffersonian government, and the ascendancy of a powerful federal government that could squash the will of any individual state, you wonder whether the price of the war was too high.

That's how this born-and-raised libertarian Michigan Yankee sees it ...
 
Old 12-01-2007, 08:41 AM
 
47 posts, read 186,779 times
Reputation: 30
StuyTownRefugee:

Your maps lost all of their credibility when they put arkansas and louisiana in the southwest region. And you know what else? For your U.S. Fish and Wildlife maps, the states are put into these regions because of distance from regional offices...I'm willing to bet the northeast's regional office is in dc and the southeasts regional office is in atlanta, since MOST of virginia is closer to DC, they put us in the northeast region. And on your pictures of the east coast from space, do you not see the huge gap between dc and richmond and then between richmond and hampton roads. These cities are not connected to the northeastern megalopolis at all. They grew on their own.
 
Old 12-01-2007, 08:43 AM
 
47 posts, read 186,779 times
Reputation: 30
Oh, and another thing, deciduous forests cover most of the eastern us, not just the northeast. They're a band of southern pines growing from eastern virginia, through eastern nc, sc, and west to texas. And of course, swamps are found everywhere, but they're not cypress swamps. Cypress trees grow strictly in the south.
 
Old 12-01-2007, 08:52 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,112,011 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tidewater50 View Post
StuyTownRefugee:

Your maps lost all of their credibility when they put arkansas and louisiana in the southwest region. And you know what else? For your U.S. Fish and Wildlife maps, the states are put into these regions because of distance from regional offices...I'm willing to bet the northeast's regional office is in dc and the southeasts regional office is in atlanta, since MOST of virginia is closer to DC, they put us in the northeast region. And on your pictures of the east coast from space, do you not see the huge gap between dc and richmond and then between richmond and hampton roads. These cities are not connected to the northeastern megalopolis at all. They grew on their own.
Actually, I think credibility was lost (the maps, that is) when New Mexico was put in the same "region" as Louisiana and Arkansas...and even Texas. I wrote something explanatory on the other thread about Southern culture, but point is, New Mexico has no business being grouped with the others so defined. But as you seem to say, maps such as this are based more on "geographical convenience" related to a specific governmental purpose, rather than anything connected with history, culture, traditions, etc...the things which truly define a "region."
 
Old 12-01-2007, 08:54 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,993 posts, read 102,568,112 times
Reputation: 33059
YoAdrian, I was surprised to see at the end of your post that you are Michigan-born. Your argument (which I believe has been raised on this board before) is a common southern argument. I'm not sure the average Joe in Civil War Times really was concerned about federal power, etc. What he/she was concerned about was the "way of life", which in the south, included slavery. Slavery was a big issue in the Civil War.
 
Old 12-01-2007, 09:17 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,112,011 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tidewater50 View Post
And of course, swamps are found everywhere, but they're not cypress swamps. Cypress trees grow strictly in the south.
Good point, Tidewater. And how many folks who have never been to Texas, and get the whole of their ideas of the state from those old "western movies" (which I love...but were actually filmed in Arizona and southern California!) might be surprised to know that the largest cypress forest in the world is located in Texas?

Here is a link with some pictures that blows away the common image of Texas being all dessert and cactus!

Caddo Lake Visitors Guide
 
Old 12-01-2007, 09:33 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,112,011 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70 View Post
YoAdrian, I was surprised to see at the end of your post that you are Michigan-born. Your argument (which I believe has been raised on this board before) is a common southern argument. I'm not sure the average Joe in Civil War Times really was concerned about federal power, etc. What he/she was concerned about was the "way of life", which in the south, included slavery. Slavery was a big issue in the Civil War.
The fact it might be a "common Southern argument" does not make it an invalid one. But no, you are right. The average joe in the South was probably not concerned with federal power, but his way of life. We agree on this. But to my way of thinking, this way of life was confined to his land, his family and kin, and his home and state.

To yours, apparently, it broadened out to abstractly include slavery simply because, following your logic, it existed in the South.

So, let me ask this. What was the average "joe" in the North concerned with? Since blacks could not legally reside in some northern states, could that have been one of them? That is to say, keeping blacks in the South and away from him?

Of course that is absurd. Same as is that most Southern joes (or billy bobs) gave a damn one way or another about slavery.

On a related tangent, I truly encourage people to read this link:

Slavery in the North
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