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Old 05-03-2007, 10:06 PM
 
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawlings View Post
I see Denver as like a step-child of Dallas. Same type of people, same politics, same attitudes, same culture, same everything--just smaller. Some on this board would like to put Denver on a trajectory with LA or Chicago. Ain't happenin'. If you want to see where Denver will be in 20 years look at Dallas now and put mountains in the background.
Having lived in both places, I strongly disagree with this. Denver like Dallas??? lol Colorado Springs may be like Dallas... but Denver? That conservative? I just don't see it.
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Lakewood, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houstoner View Post
Having lived in both places, I strongly disagree with this. Denver like Dallas??? lol Colorado Springs may be like Dallas... but Denver? That conservative? I just don't see it.
You know, I wonder if Dallas is really as conservative as it's made out to be. After all, their sheriff is a gay, hispanic woman. The city of Dallas voted for Kerry in the last election and even Dallas county--encompassing much of the metroplex--went for Bush only 51-49. Metro Denver voted 53-47 for Bush in 2004 which is a far more conservative number than nearly every other major metro area except for Phoenix, Houston, and one or two others. If you're living in Lodo or something I can imagine that your view of Denver would be a pretty liberal city. But the metro area as a whole is pretty darn conservative. Take out the city of Denver and you basically do have Colorado Springs.

My guess is that Denver is probably more conserative than you think and Dallas is more liberal than you think. The comparison is imperfect, but I don't see much else that you can compare Denver to? Salt lake? Phoenix? Orange County? Charlotte? All of those work to a greater or lesser degree, but I'd stick with my Dallas analogy.
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Katy-zuela
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I think he is talking about the Dallas that most people think of (the Northern suburbs) not Dallas proper.
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Lakewood, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
I think he is talking about the Dallas that most people think of (the Northern suburbs) not Dallas proper.

Maybe.

My original point is that if you want to know what Denver will look like in 20 years or so, look at DFW today and add some mountains and cold weather. The two cities are, at the heart of it, quite similar. North Dallas is very conservative--but the metroplex is made up of much more than those suburbs just like Denver is much more than the city of Denver. In fact, the city and county of Denver is really only 1/7 the size of the entire msa. If you took Dallas' 'burbs and put 'em up against Denver's 'burbs, they would not only seem alike culturally and economically--but they would be politically dead even.
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Old 05-04-2007, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
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houstoner and Rawlings:

Great discussion, especially your comments, Rawlings, because I have the same conceptions about Denver vs. Dallas that houstoner has. I'm very surprised to learn those stats, but there is one thing that should be considered and that's your manner of comparing them. You specifically said Dallas city and county, NOT Dallas metro, so you compared the urban core of Dallas to the entire metro Denver area.

I think if you compared apples to apples, you'd probably find that Denver is more progressive than Dallas, but that's partly just my bias against Dallas because that city seems so antithetical to everything I love about Austin. And when I was teaching at UT, my Dallas-native students would tell me about life in their hometown, they said that "culture" there consisted largely of going to shopping malls. Now, I KNOW that's not accurate because DFW obviously has more museums and other cultural institutions, but the experience of living there for these students was that it was kind of like a giant shopping center and the lifestyle was focused on accumulating money and stuff and having big hair. LOL... all the usual stereotypes, affirmed by natives!
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Old 05-04-2007, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Lakewood, CO
353 posts, read 379,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHarvester View Post
houstoner and Rawlings:

Great discussion, especially your comments, Rawlings, because I have the same conceptions about Denver vs. Dallas that houstoner has. I'm very surprised to learn those stats, but there is one thing that should be considered and that's your manner of comparing them. You specifically said Dallas city and county, NOT Dallas metro, so you compared the urban core of Dallas to the entire metro Denver area.

I think if you compared apples to apples, you'd probably find that Denver is more progressive than Dallas, but that's partly just my bias against Dallas because that city seems so antithetical to everything I love about Austin. And when I was teaching at UT, my Dallas-native students would tell me about life in their hometown, they said that "culture" there consisted largely of going to shopping malls. Now, I KNOW that's not accurate because DFW obviously has more museums and other cultural institutions, but the experience of living there for these students was that it was kind of like a giant shopping center and the lifestyle was focused on accumulating money and stuff and having big hair. LOL... all the usual stereotypes, affirmed by natives!
That's fair. And I have nothing to say about Dallas being a city full of mall-hopping softies--that may or may not be true. I'm only talking politics here. And, yes, DFW--if you include Plano and other exurbs, would be more conservative than metro Denver. But, still, Dallas county--which encompasses much more than the city of Dallas (it has Mesquite, Irving, and other suburbs) voted barely for Bush. I think the entire metroplex would be something like 57-43 for Bush while the entire Denver metro area was 53-47 for Bush. So, yes, metro Denver is not as conservative.

But, still, metro Denver is quite conservative. It's really all relative, isnt' it? We can talk about who is more conservative--Dallas or Denver--but the reality is that they are both pretty politically conservative when you put them up agaisnt the majority of other metro areas. It's kind of like comparing Denver to Colorado Springs. Sure, the Springs is quite a bit more conservative, but in reality they are quite similar if you look at St. Louis, Portland, Seattle, Cleveland, or any other major metro area.

Here's an analogy: If you grow up in Manhattan you think Brooklyn's houses are quite far away from eachother. After all, in Manhattan you practically live atop one another. So you go through life believing that, boy, Brooklyn housing structure is quite a bit different. But then you travel to Tyler, Texas where people live on large lots. So, while you've always perceived Brooklyn to be way different than your hometown of Manhattan, you realize that it's all relative--in reality Manhattan housing is a great deal like Brooklyn housing. It's much the same in Dallas and Denver. Sure, there are marked dissimilarities which would make one think they are opposite eachother. But when you look around a bit you realize that they are probably close relatives to eachother politically and culturally.

That's why I'm having a hard time finding a proper comparison for Denver. I mean, truly, what other city besides Dallas would be culturally and politically equivallent--more or less--to Denver? I just can't think of any. People try to compare Seattle to Denver but really the two cities--I know!--are very different. Salt Lake is its own world and Charlotte is too southern. That kind of leaves me with Dallas.
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:12 AM
 
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,085 posts, read 11,460,846 times
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Default consider the source

TheHarvester, this is the general image problem Texas cities suffer from. People who were raised in their suburbs sometimes have --surprise!-- a very negative view of their home cities because they never actually lived in them and know very little about them. When they finally leave them and move other places they talk about how boring these cities are when in fact --again, surprise!-- it was their lives out in the suburbs that were boring. Dallas and Houston both have this problem with public perception. Same thing goes for Texas overall. I have to chuckle to myself when people talk about how Texas doesn't have natural beauty, or is so unbearably hot, or there's nothing to do outdoors except for in Austin, etc. If they'd traveled around it at all they wouldn't be able to say that!

Rawlings, when I lived in Denver it reminded me more of Austin (well, early 1990s-era Austin anyway) than Dallas. I was involved in the activist communities in both cities. I think I'll chalk up our different views to the fact that we obviously run in vastly different circles.

Last edited by houstoner; 05-04-2007 at 10:18 AM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 05-04-2007, 11:07 AM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,065,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houstoner View Post
People who were raised in their suburbs sometimes have --surprise!-- a very negative view of their home cities because they never actually lived in them and know very little about them. When they finally leave them and move other places they talk about how boring these cities are when in fact --again, surprise!-- it was their lives out in the suburbs that were boring.
Very perceptive, houstoner! I think it is true in many metro areas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by houstoner View Post
Rawlings, when I lived in Denver it reminded me more of Austin (well, early 1990s-era Austin anyway) than Dallas.
I've been to Denver many more times than I've been to Dallas, but I have to agree with your assessment, houstoner! Denver just seems much more progressive (like Austin)

Last edited by Ben Around; 05-04-2007 at 11:08 AM.. Reason: etc
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Old 05-04-2007, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Lakewood, CO
353 posts, read 379,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post

I've been to Denver many more times than I've been to Dallas, but I have to agree with your assessment, houstoner! Denver just seems much more progressive (like Austin)
The city and county of Denver--which makes up only about 1/7 the total metro area--is A LOT like the city of Austin. They are very close to one another. But the truth is that when you're only 1/7 the size of a metro area you only speak for a small number of metro residents. If you include the entire metro area Denver ends up being politically a lot more like Dallas.

Here's an interesting stat:

In 2004 metro Austin (Travis County, to be exact) voted for Kerry 56-42 percent. That's a wide margin and credibly nominates a city for the label, "liberal." In 2004 metro Denver (the 7-county metro area) voted for Bush 53-47. That credibly qualified a city for the label, 'moderate conservative.' So if you push metro austin up against metro Denver--there's no question--Denver is much more conservative. I think Denver is probably politically right in between Dallas and Austin--conservative--but competitive.

I think some of the misperceptions about Denver result from the fact that the city of Denver is both markedly different than the rest of the metro area--and its size is inflated in popular opinion. The city of Denver is a small city in a huge metro area. And if you were to take out the city of Denver you'd basically have Colorado Springs. The suburbs are very conservative and it's only the city of Denver that keeps the metro area from going over-the-top conservative.

While in Travis County, Austin itself is quite liberal with mixed, slightly right-leaning suburbs.

And let's be honest here. Liberal in Colorado and Texas means a whole something entirely different than it does on either of the coasts. In Colorado and Texas being liberal means you might be vegetarian, vote Democratic from time to time, and drink lattes--but you still go to church, listen to country music, and tell your parents that you love Bush. That's the reality of the situation in middle America.

Since houstoner is in academia--as am I--you'll find this tidbit interesting:

Colorado is the top spot for Texas college students who go out of state (University of Colorado fields the most) and Texas is the top spot for Colorado kids who go out of state (UT fielding the most). There's a reason for that: it's a lot like home. Texans can come to Colorado and not feel culturally or politically isolated and visa versa--Coloradans can find Texas to be the closest thing to home. We both have a western heritage, conservative--yet funky, sophisticated--culture, and cowboy spunk but a down-home feel.
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Old 05-04-2007, 12:05 PM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,065,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawlings View Post
The city and county of Denver--which makes up only about 1/7 the total metro area--is A LOT like the city of Austin. They are very close to one another. But the truth is that when you're only 1/7 the size of a metro area you only speak for a small number of metro residents. If you include the entire metro area Denver ends up being politically a lot more like Dallas.
Well, I think that's true for lots of American metro areas. But when I assess a "city", I assess the CITY. I'm not interested in the suburbs, which are almost universally conservative in the US. So I'm comparing Dallas city to Denver city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawlings View Post
And let's be honest here. Liberal in Colorado and Texas means a whole something entirely different than it does on either of the coasts. In Colorado and Texas being liberal means you might be vegetarian, vote Democratic from time to time, and drink lattes--but you still go to church, listen to country music, and tell your parents that you love Bush. That's the reality of the situation in middle America.
So you are saying there are no true liberals in CO or TX as we know them in the rest of the country?
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