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i know little about micro, macro, or global economics. to me, understanding some of these forces of the economy is very interesting. i appreciate the info. it is true about knowledge ='s power, etc. i think the states should pass legislation forcing, senators, representatives, mayors, and other civic leaders to hold degrees in economics and/or other related fields. one final question, any thoughts on nc's geophysical location, population demographics, etc., that made it the choice or location for the current powerhouse location? did it just "happen", did they "fall" into it, years of planning, snowballing, soforth? thanks.
quote=urbancharlotte;10747315]I did say "almost every city" in the rust belt fell off.
I am not sure what you mean by almost every city, cities such as those in Wisconsin, aka Millwauke , madison, even chicago and to an extent Indianapolis are doing well, now of course the economy is going through a downturn, so some of those cities are not doing so well but its still a bit of far cry from the "almost every city in the rust belt".
In time, yes. Will it happen within the next 50 years? I doubt it. Too many folks are still moving to the south from other (more expensive) regions.
It may already be happening and migration has slowed.
Even in Charlotte, people still continue to move here in large numbers (completely ignoring Charlotte's high unemployment rate). The good news is that Charlotte's unemployment rate actually posted a slight drop last month. Hopefully this is the start of a trend.[/b]
[/b] I Agree, you know people especially in the northeast seem to keep wanting to move to Charlotte because other people have moved even though the homes which are cheaper did get more expensive, and they don't necessarily have the proper jobs, connections besides friends, income, and planning.
I am not sure about Nashville and Memphis, but I know that metro Charlotte averages nearly 60,000 newcomers a year. If this trend continues, Charlotte's CSA will break the 3 million mark in about 10 years (without adding any counties). Heck, Raleigh/Durham will break the 2 million mark in about 6 years. Greensboro/Winston-Salem could reach 2 million in 15 years or so. NC is by NO MEANS a one trick pony when it comes to cities/metros with economic/population growth. NC is quickly becoming the southeast's "2nd Florida" and I mean that in a good way.
Florida's population they say is on the decline, will that happen to NC, not trying to be doom and gloom, but NC should learn and don't hold its breath.
The fact that NC will soon have two (or even three) CSAs with over 2 million people is VERY unique for a southeastern state (or any state for that matter). Florida is currently the only state (in the southeast) with more than one 2 million-plus CSA.
True, but don't confuse or substitute CSA's for MSA , not every MSA has a CSA , phoenix for example has no CSA, neither does San Diego despite a lot of population growth. CSA'S also have to a lot more with geographic area and ties but are not necessarily correlated with the state itself in terms of population growth and economic resulting from that. Austin and San Antionio for example don't have CSA's although the two MSA's border each other.
Population is very key because people=economic strength. This is a known fact. Here is a link that shows how all states stack up in terms of GDP.
List of U.S. states by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
NC is currently the 2nd largest state in the southeast (behind only Florida) when it comes to economic activity. NC is 9th in the nation (up from 11th just 4 years ago). Tennessee recently fell from 18th to 19th thanks to fast moving Arizona.
Not exactly true, take a look at New Jersey, its the 7th highest state for GDP but only 11th for population, similarly Connecticut is the 29th largest state by population but 23rd for GDP.
GDP is a great way to predict future population/economic growth. Clearly, NC is heading up (and fast). I honestly don't see NC changing direction anytime soon.[/quote]
i know little about micro, macro, or global economics. to me, understanding some of these forces of the economy is very interesting. i appreciate the info. it is true about knowledge ='s power, etc. i think the states should pass legislation forcing, senators, representatives, mayors, and other civic leaders to hold degrees in economics and/or other related fields. one final question, any thoughts on nc's geophysical location, population demographics, etc., that made it the choice or location for the current powerhouse location? did it just "happen", did they "fall" into it, years of planning, snowballing, soforth? thanks.
Those are the same Questions , I ask in the beginning, I don't think you need a degree in economics or related fields to become a legislature , it may help to be versed in some of those fields but one can and should consult experts as far as geographic location that may influence it , but durham and charlotte are far away from the water, so its advantage of tennesee may become lesser to that extent, North Carolina I guess its kind of like a middle state for people from the northeast and halfbacks who went to florida and changed their mind.
As for Virginia, its not viewed as the middle, due to northern virginia and southern virginia having contrast differences.
They probably fell into it , NC does offer certain tax breaks and corporate breaks for certain businesses , though not all except well connected. NC is not unique in this way, Georgia, Florida until recently, Texas, have all had the same growth, whether Tennessee will start to see it is debatle, a lot of halfbacks are moving there from florida and so on.
Florida's population they say is on the decline, will that happen to NC, not trying to be doom and gloom, but NC should learn and don't hold its breath.
The states that border water (whether it is the Atlantic, the Pacific, the Gulf, or the Great Lakes) are destined to be powerhouses. Tennessee does not have this advantage. Tennessee can still become a powerhouse regardless of this fact. It just lacks the water front advantage of MANY other states (that are booming faster).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tech2enable
True, but don't confuse or substitute CSA's for MSA
There is no confusion at all on my part. I am well aware of the fact that Charlotte and Nashville both have similar MSA populations (1.7 million for Charlotte and 1.6 million for Nashville). However, I am also aware of the fact that Nashville's MSA has 5,700 sq/mi of land. Charlotte's MSA has only 3,000 sq/mi of land. Let's compare Nashville's MSA/CSA to the MSAs/CSAs of North Carolina.
Nashville's MSA has 1.6 million people (5,700 sq/mi) Nashville's CSA has 1.7 million people (6,300 sq/mi)
Charlotte's MSA has 1.7 million people (3,000 sq/mi) Charlotte's CSA has 2.4 million people (6,500 sq/mi)
Raleigh's MSA has 1.1 million people (2,100 sq/mi) Raleigh/Durham's CSA has 1.7 million people (4,500 sq/mi)
Greensboro's MSA has 700,000 people (2,000 sq/mi)
Greensboro/Winston-Salem's CSA has 1.6 million people (4,900 sq/mi)
Just by looking at these numbers, you can clearly see why folks in NC go by CSA instead of MSA. Our CSAs are similar in land area to many MSAs around the country.
When looking at populations, you must take note of how large a MSA or CSA is before you make a snap judgement. I cringe everytime Charlotte is called a "same sized metro" as Nashville because it really isn't. Heck, even Raleigh/Durham and Greensboro/Winston-Salem are more concentrated than Metro Nashville (let alone Charlotte).
This is by no means a slight towards Nashville. It is just an observation. I used to think Nashville and Charlotte (the metro areas) were fairly similar until I visited Nashville in person. The cities are very comparable, however Charlotte has more people (ie sprawl and small towns) surrounding the city itself than Nashville does.
I think few of our friends (to our west) understand that Tennessee's largest metro (Nashville) would only be NC's 3rd or 4th largest Metro (if Nashville were in NC).
Nashville would also be NC's 3rd or 4th fastest growing metro with over 1 million people. Again, this is not a Nashville diss. I like Nashville alot. I am just trying to seperate some of the myths from the facts. That's all.
The bottom line is there's a good reason why NC is the Nation's 9th largest economic powerhouse and Tennessee is down in the lower teens. The populations of our metros here in NC (compared to Tennessee's metros) is the first clue. There aren't any "secrets" behind NC's success what so ever. People/population=power.
Last edited by urbancharlotte; 09-15-2009 at 07:53 AM..
The states that border water (whether it is the Atlantic, the Pacific, the Gulf, or the Great Lakes) are destined to be powerhouses. Tennessee does not have this advantage. Tennessee can still become a powerhouse regardless of this fact. It just lacks the water front advantage of MANY other states (that are booming faster).
I may agree on this, I had stated this question on the begging post on what they though on that.
There is no confusion at all on my part. I am well aware of the fact that Charlotte and Nashville both have similar MSA populations (1.7 million for Charlotte and 1.6 million for Nashville). However, I am also aware of the fact that Nashville's MSA has 5,700 sq/mi of land. Charlotte's MSA has only 3,000 sq/mi of land. Let's compare Nashville's MSA/CSA to the MSAs/CSAs of North Carolina.
Nashville's MSA has 1.6 million people (5,700 sq/mi) Nashville's CSA has 1.7 million people (6,300 sq/mi)
Charlotte's MSA has 1.7 million people (3,000 sq/mi) Charlotte's CSA has 2.4 million people (6,500 sq/mi)
Raleigh's MSA has 1.1 million people (2,100 sq/mi) Raleigh/Durham's CSA has 1.7 million people (4,500 sq/mi)
Greensboro's MSA has 700,000 people (2,000 sq/mi)
Greensboro/Winston-Salem's CSA has 1.6 million people (4,900 sq/mi)
I wasn't really referring to Tennesee so much as the topic as CSA's in general , in states other than Tennesee there may be large MSA that border each other such as in Texas and large MSA that may near other MSA's or atleast have there own unique influence among others such as in California, ie san diego does not have a CSA. CSA can be less relevant.
Just by looking at these numbers, you can clearly see why folks in NC go by CSA instead of MSA. Our CSAs are similar in land area to many MSAs around the country.
When looking at populations, you must take note of how large a MSA or CSA is before you make a snap judgement. I cringe everytime Charlotte is called a "same sized metro" as Nashville because it really isn't. Heck, even Raleigh/Durham and Greensboro/Winston-Salem are more concentrated than Metro Nashville (let alone Charlotte).
This is by no means a slight towards Nashville. It is just an observation. I used to think Nashville and Charlotte (the metro areas) were fairly similar until I visited Nashville in person. The cities are very comparable, however Charlotte has more people (ie sprawl and small towns) surrounding the city itself than Nashville does.
I think few of our friends (to our west) understand that Tennessee's largest metro (Nashville) would only be NC's 3rd or 4th largest Metro (if Nashville were in NC).
Nashville would also be NC's 3rd or 4th fastest growing metro with over 1 million people. Again, this is not a Nashville diss. I like Nashville alot. I am just trying to seperate some of the myths from the facts. That's all.
A large population, as in the case of New Jersey or Connecticut does not always translate into economic power, the former has less people then say North Carolina but is ahead a few place economically. People and population does not always equal power in terms of ratio. Let's take South Carolina, its population is larger than Connecticut by 25-30% however its economy is the 44th largest compared to Connecticut's 29th.
The bottom line is there's a good reason why NC is the Nation's 9th largest economic powerhouse and Tennessee is down in the lower teens. The populations of our metros here in NC (compared to Tennessee's metros) is the first clue. There aren't any "secrets" behind NC's success what so ever. People/population=power.
There is no confusion at all on my part. I am well aware of the fact that Charlotte and Nashville both have similar MSA populations (1.7 million for Charlotte and 1.6 million for Nashville). However, I am also aware of the fact that Nashville's MSA has 5,700 sq/mi of land. Charlotte's MSA has only 3,000 sq/mi of land. Let's compare Nashville's MSA/CSA to the MSAs/CSAs of North Carolina.
Nashville's MSA has 1.6 million people (5,700 sq/mi) Nashville's CSA has 1.7 million people (6,300 sq/mi)
Charlotte's MSA has 1.7 million people (3,000 sq/mi) Charlotte's CSA has 2.4 million people (6,500 sq/mi)
Raleigh's MSA has 1.1 million people (2,100 sq/mi) Raleigh/Durham's CSA has 1.7 million people (4,500 sq/mi)
Greensboro's MSA has 700,000 people (2,000 sq/mi)
Greensboro/Winston-Salem's CSA has 1.6 million people (4,900 sq/mi)
Just by looking at these numbers, you can clearly see why folks in NC go by CSA instead of MSA. Our CSAs are similar in land area to many MSAs around the country.
It's fine if you want to say that the Nashville metro sprawls more than the Charlotte metro, or that it's less dense or that it's behaves like a slightly smaller city. I agree. I'm even fine that you feel the need to use CSA figures when you're actually discussing metros. But I still think you're comparing apples and oranges here when it comes to using land area to compare the populations of these metros.
The most significant population concentrations in the Nashville metro outside of Davidson County are all to the south of the city. The second largest city in the Nashville metro has over 100,000 people, is more than 35 miles south of Nashville, and has suburbs of its own. The corridor in between the two cities is fairly densely populated with a significant amount of people going back and forth in between Nashville and Murfreesboro. Of course, the metro is going to take up a massive amount of space if this is how it's configured.
The most significant population concentrations in the Nashville metro outside of Davidson County are all to the south of the city. The second largest city in the Nashville metro has over 100,000 people, is more than 35 miles south of Nashville, and has suburbs of its own. The corridor in between the two cities is fairly densely populated with a significant amount of people going back and forth in between Nashville and Murfreesboro. Of course, the metro is going to take up a massive amount of space if this is how it's configured.
I think you might have missed my point (or maybe you got it ). I am not really sure.
My point was to show that Charlotte's MSA/CSA/CITY/COUNTY/WHATEVER is more dense (and more populated) than metro Nashville. Charlotte also has 700,000 more people (within a 40 mile radius of uptown Charlotte) than Nashville has (within a 40 mile radius of downtown Nashville).
I understand that Nashville is VERY "bottom heavy" thanks to Rutherford County. However, Charlotte has a "Rutherford County" scenario going on in all directions. Even in Charlotte's rural west side (Gaston and Lincoln counties) you will find populations and densities VERY similar to Rutherford County (Lincoln county is not even inside of Charlotte's MSA btw).
To understand where I am coming from, let's look at Davidson and Rutherford counties' combined population (and land area) vs. Charlotte's (Mecklenburg county) population and land area.
Davidson + Rutherford counties
Population 900,000 Area 1120 sq/mi
Mecklenburg county
Population 925,000 Area 526 sq/mi
Like I said, I do understand that Nashville is "bottom heavy" when it comes to population distribution. However, that really doesn't matter when you look at what is going on in Metro Charlotte (and try to compare these two Metros).
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingchef
one final question, any thoughts on nc's geophysical location, population demographics, etc., that made it the choice or location for the current powerhouse location? did it just "happen", did they "fall" into it, years of planning, snowballing, soforth? thanks.
This is a good question (and one I had to ask myself at one point). I am sorry for the late response, but I totally missed this question you posted (until just now).
IMO there are 4 main factors that led to NC's growth. These factors are "cash crop", "education", "banking", and "moonshining".
Cash Crop
Eastern North Carolina was cursed with large areas of swamps that were pretty much uninhabitable. These swamp like (humid) areas were only good for growing one thing (Tobacco). NC quickly became the unofficial "tobacco" state. Not only did tobacco farmers make tons of money for NC, they also had a HUGE representation within the state's government. It is not a coincidence that we've had cigarettes with names like "Salem", "Winston", and "Raleigh" (all NC cities).
Much of tobacco's money made its way back to NC in the form of higher education, better roads, and large local banks (BB&T, North Carolina National Bank aka Bank of America, First Union aka Wells Fargo).
Education
Thanks in large part to the tobacco industry, NC had one of the best higher learning "Triangle" in the Nation. However, back in the 1950s, NC was suffering from a major "brain drain". People became highly educated in NC, but NC did not have the type of jobs these educated North Carolinians deserved. As a result, these folks left NC for places like NYC, Detroit, LA, etc.
NC (as a state) decided to build a "research park" that would eventually be filled with high paying jobs (so NC's educated class can stay home). This "reserch park" was created back in the 50s in the woods of Durham county NC. Today, it is the largest such Research Park in the World! It is situated in between Durham and Raleigh.
Banking
While the eastern part of the state was building a major research campus, the western part of the state was too busy financing all of this activity with its banks. By the 1980s, NC had some of the largest regional banks in the Nation. Then came deregulation.
Deregulation allowed for NC's (already large) regional banks to become larger. NC banks no longer were confined to NC's borders. As a result, the banks started buying up many major regional banks throughout the country.
As the banks got larger, so did the banking hub city (Charlotte). Charlotte is also the transportation, manufacturing, and corporate capital of North and South Carolina (8 Fortune 500 companies are headquartered in Charlotte).
Moonshining
Believe it or not, NC had a major (and VERY illegal) undergound industry (moonshining). These moonshiners were constantly inventing new ways to escape the law. They decided that the best method was to simply out-run the law. For this, they needed "fast cars".
When these boys with the "fast cars" weren't out-running the law, they were racing their "toys" on a dirt track near Charlotte's westside. These circular races were the birth of a multi billion dollar industry. 85% of this industry still calls Charlotte home as of today (NASCAR). NASCAR's official headquarters is in Dayton Beach, however Charlotte is NASCAR's hub city. Hence, the reason why Uptown Charlotte was chosen for the location of the Nascar Hall of Fame.
In short, there were SEVERAL factors that played a huge part in NC's growth. I haven't named all of the factors (because it would be a very loooong post if I did LOL!) However, I did try to touch on the main points. Charlotte is also the energy hub of the Carolina's. Duke Energy is one of Charlotte's Fortune 500 companies.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope this answered some the questions as to "why" NC has grown so much (and is still growing).
I think you might have missed my point (or maybe you got it ). I am not really sure.
My point was to show that Charlotte's MSA/CSA/CITY/COUNTY/WHATEVER is more dense (and more populated) than metro Nashville. Charlotte also has 700,000 more people (within a 40 mile radius of uptown Charlotte) than Nashville has (within a 40 mile radius of downtown Nashville).
I understand that Nashville is VERY "bottom heavy" thanks to Rutherford County. However, Charlotte has a "Rutherford County" scenario going on in all directions. Even in Charlotte's rural west side (Gaston and Lincoln counties) you will find populations and densities VERY similar to Rutherford County (Lincoln county is not even inside of Charlotte's MSA btw).
To understand where I am coming from, let's look at Davidson and Rutherford counties' combined population (and land area) vs. Charlotte's (Mecklenburg county) population and land area.
Davidson + Rutherford counties
Population 900,000 Area 1120 sq/mi
Mecklenburg county
Population 925,000 Area 526 sq/mi
Like I said, I do understand that Nashville is "bottom heavy" when it comes to population distribution. However, that really doesn't matter when you look at what is going on in Metro Charlotte (and try to compare these two Metros).
I don't know if I've missed your point but rather I'm perplexed as to why you insist on using MSA population, CSA population and land area statistics when what you obviously want to discuss is the urban density of regions and/or growth. You'll be better off using urbanized density data. As I'm sure you know, MSA and CSA populations are primarily determined by data such as commuting and employment patterns rather than land area or density. If MSA and CSA data was determined by contiguous urbanized density then there would likely be fewer MSAs and CSAs and the ones in the northeast would probably be more massive than they already are.
Again, I think you're talking about apples and oranges here. While population data is sometimes off, I am certain there isn't a conspiracy against Charlotte or any other metro. If the commuting and employment patterns support including other counties that are currently in the CSA but not in the metro on the next census, then those will be included.
I definitely agree, using the MSA/CSA configuration is not the best way to gauge statistics , I am not sure how the poster is using it.
There are many MSA areas , (we've already posted about csa v. msa and how csa's are not the proper way to measure growth and economics necessarily), that have large populations.
Look at El paso msa , despite its high MSA , its not close to being on the scale of economics of cities smaller than its MSA such as colorado springs which isn't part of the denver csa, charleston, sc which is one of SC's major cities even columbia, sc CSA ,
cities such as des monies, ia CSA, madison, wi CSA, are smaller than el paso but don't have the same influence .
Slighty larger cities than el paso msa, include places such as omaha, csa, honolulu, tucson,.
They probably fell into it , NC does offer certain tax breaks and corporate breaks for certain businesses , though not all except well connected. NC is not unique in this way, Georgia, Florida until recently, Texas, have all had the same growth, whether Tennessee will start to see it is debatle, a lot of halfbacks are moving there from florida and so on.
I can really only speak for the Raleigh/Durham (Triangle) area. I can assure you that the area didn't "fall into" any sort of success. Its success was mapped out more than 50 years ago by state leaders who were looking for ways to prevent NC's best and brightest college graduates from leaving the state for opportunity. The seeds were planted years ago with the Research Triangle Foundation (and later the Research Triangle Park) and much effort was put into making the area what it is today and what it will be in the future. I am sure that a similarly compelling story can be told for Charlotte.
In the end, the half backs wouldn't be coming to NC if there wasn't any reason to come.
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). I am not really sure.
Using MSA/CSA not always the best
