U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-13-2009, 11:42 PM
 
1,645 posts, read 3,191,396 times
Reputation: 1381

Advertisements

Connecticut is a solid New England state. The only possible reason one can claim it isn't is because Connecticut is the only New England state with a metropolitan area that identifies with New York City, rather than Boston, but that's it. I've found places like Darien, Guilford, Madison, Wethersfield, and Mystic to have an extremely New England feel. If someone is going to make the claim that CT is becoming part of the Mid-Atlantic (Which I believe mostly stems from NYC arrogance), one can claim that Maine is no longer a part of New England because the Acadian culture is more closely connected to Quebec.

Connecticut should turn its back on NYC, in my opinion. Use it for economic purposes/job opportunities, but trash all of its culture. One of the things I hate about my state, New Jersey, is NYC's influence in the northern part of our state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-14-2009, 05:48 AM
 
Location: Boston
1,082 posts, read 2,490,108 times
Reputation: 908
Regarding the question of whether CT is part of New England or part of New York, why can't it be both? There is such a thing as regional overlap, and CT is a shining example. How can that not happen when you have a massive urban area with 100 million people running across several states? The whole point of terms like BosNYWash is to illustrate that some conglomerations are cross regional.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 06:50 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,131 posts, read 9,903,738 times
Reputation: 6423
^ Yeah, I been saying the same thing about Connecticut myself. Its like you can have your cake and eat it too!

One thing that is different about New England is its towns, including the famous New England town meeting. I am suprised this was not really mentioned instead of all these ethnic theories. And to someone who actually said it a page or two ago, New Englanders DO NOT speak with a English accent!

Outside of cities, New England uses towns as it primary form of government. Except for a few exceptions, everyone outside a city, lives in a "incorporated town" and pays taxes to that town. In addition, New England counties have very limited or even non-existent governments. This lack of county government makes the 6 New England states different from all the other states.

In most other states, people not living in cities often live in "unincorporated" towns/townships and pay no local taxes except to maybe the county or public services.

Its just a theory but the lack of county government might make New England states more willing to work with each other. For instance, my state is similar to New England with its incorporated city/town form of government but we also have strong county government like the rest of the USA. Westchester County for example, works as a Metro area for its various towns and cities. New England lacks this mid level planning unit so the best way that communites on the border of Rhode Island and Massachusetts for instance, can work together is at the state level.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Coastal Northeast
16,736 posts, read 23,159,321 times
Reputation: 5847
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
The only possible reason one can claim it isn't is because Connecticut is the only New England state with a metropolitan area that identifies with New York City, rather than Boston, but that's it.
No part of CT identifies with Boston. Even in far Northeastern CT, you're still a ways from Boston as metro Boston does not stretch into CT.

And I agree with those who say CT is the "overlap" state. Certain Bostonians on here don't like that, however.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 08:46 AM
 
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,085 posts, read 11,451,914 times
Reputation: 1942
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post

One thing that is different about New England is its towns, including the famous New England town meeting. I am suprised this was not really mentioned instead of all these ethnic theories. And to someone who actually said it a page or two ago, New Englanders DO NOT speak with a English accent!

Outside of cities, New England uses towns as it primary form of government. Except for a few exceptions, everyone outside a city, lives in a "incorporated town" and pays taxes to that town. In addition, New England counties have very limited or even non-existent governments. This lack of county government makes the 6 New England states different from all the other states.

In most other states, people not living in cities often live in "unincorporated" towns/townships and pay no local taxes except to maybe the county or public services.

Its just a theory but the lack of county government might make New England states more willing to work with each other. For instance, my state is similar to New England with its incorporated city/town form of government but we also have strong county government like the rest of the USA. Westchester County for example, works as a Metro area for its various towns and cities. New England lacks this mid level planning unit so the best way that communites on the border of Rhode Island and Massachusetts for instance, can work together is at the state level.
I agree. I love the town meeting system of government in New England. I think it's a lot more efficient and helps people to have more of a vested interest in local politics and in their communities. Texas has such large cities and counties and so many unincorporated areas (in and around Houston at least) people are too often discouraged or disenfranchised by confusing, byzantine processes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
30,680 posts, read 49,437,227 times
Reputation: 19129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
^ Yeah, I been saying the same thing about Connecticut myself. Its like you can have your cake and eat it too!

One thing that is different about New England is its towns, including the famous New England town meeting. I am suprised this was not really mentioned instead of all these ethnic theories. And to someone who actually said it a page or two ago, New Englanders DO NOT speak with a English accent!

Outside of cities, New England uses towns as it primary form of government. Except for a few exceptions, everyone outside a city, lives in a "incorporated town" and pays taxes to that town. In addition, New England counties have very limited or even non-existent governments. This lack of county government makes the 6 New England states different from all the other states.
I agree.



Quote:
... In most other states, people not living in cities often live in "unincorporated" towns/townships and pay no local taxes except to maybe the county or public services.
I live in New England, in an Un-Organized township [UT].

In fact in a state where 52% of the state is Un-Organized townships [UTs].

We do not have a town government, no body drawing salaries from our property taxes. So our property taxes are low, and are paid directly to the state.

The state has it's own base mil-rate, then the state also works up a county budget, for each county and includes that mil-rate into what it bills the towns.

In my township, we pay a mil-rate which is the same for all UTs in our county.

Each organized town in our county adds onto that all of their own expenses, increasing the mil-rate that they charge their residents.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,131 posts, read 9,903,738 times
Reputation: 6423
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I agree.





I live in New England, in an Un-Organized township [UT].

In fact in a state where 52% of the state is Un-Organized townships [UTs].

We do not have a town government, no body drawing salaries from our property taxes. So our property taxes are low, and are paid directly to the state.

The state has it's own base mil-rate, then the state also works up a county budget, for each county and includes that mil-rate into what it bills the towns.

In my township, we pay a mil-rate which is the same for all UTs in our county.

Each organized town in our county adds onto that all of their own expenses, increasing the mil-rate that they charge their residents.

Yes, when I said "except for a few exceptions" I was mostly thinking of your state. I read about regular town governments being abolished in Maine. I think it also happened in New Hampshire/Vermont but to a much lesser extent.

It really is not necessary for a town of a few hundred people or less to have a local government. But is that what you are talking about here? If so, I had no idea it is over 50%!

It does sound like Maine might be different from some of the New England states. I never heard of "mil-rates", is that normal?

As far as I know, the only New England state that has incorporated VILLAGES like New York, is Vermont. This is interesting because as we were saying near the begining of this thread, Vermont broke away from New York more than 200 years ago!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
30,680 posts, read 49,437,227 times
Reputation: 19129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Yes, when I said "except for a few exceptions" I was mostly thinking of your state. I read about regular town governments being abolished in Maine. I think it also happened in New Hampshire/Vermont but to a much lesser extent.

It really is not necessary for a town of a few hundred people or less to have a local government. But is that what you are talking about here? If so, I had no idea it is over 50%!
Most of Maine is rural.

At some point the entire state of Maine was divided into a map of townships. Many of them were designated by a letter and a number. Then as towns became incorporated they got names.

In the case of my township, they later decided to drop the charter or corporation, so our township still has it's name rather than a letter/number designation.



Quote:
... It does sound like Maine might be different from some of the New England states. I never heard of "mil-rates", is that normal?
I do believe that mil-rates are the norm in every state.

The state needs some level of money from property taxes collected, so the state gives that need to the towns. The towns likewise have a need for money from property taxes, so they add to that to derive their mil-rate. Each property is assessed, and those assessment values are multiplied against the mil-rate to derive the amount of taxes due.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 08:43 PM
 
Location: New Hampshire
2,257 posts, read 6,970,506 times
Reputation: 4061
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Social tolerance? Self reliance? Most Americans see New England as a landscape filled with small towns and white churches on a village green. Beautiful fall colors, covered bridges, colonial looking buildings. I do not think that people vacation to New England because of Vermont's views on abortion or civil rights!
Well yeah, but isn't that the same for just about anywhere? People tend to think about places in terms of their geography before their populations, and I don't know anyone who vacations for political reasons! But if you ask a cross section of Americans what they think of people from New England, I'm sure that some of the aforementioned social values will pop up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Now people are saying the 3 northern New England states have more "social tolerance". Well, there is more than one of looking at it. I ask where are people REALLY more tolerant, a mostly rural white state where people live far from each other or a big metro area filled with people of different races, ethnicity and religion living right on top of each other?
I don't think that diversity and tolerance are always directly correlated, and I do think that non-diverse areas are capabling of espousing values of tolerance and openness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Self Reliance? Well rural people tend to be more self reliant so I give this to the 3 northern New England states. But guess what? Other states have large rural populations also, the Mid-Atlantic states are more than just the seaboard. Farmers for instance tend to among the most self reliant. But how is the farming these days in New Hampshire compared to upstate NY or Pennsylvania? Or even New Jersey?
Well, self-reliance was probably the worst example I could have chosen from the long list of possible values. It tends to be a classically cited one though, in large part because the original New England farmers had to deal with both very harsh weather and very uncooperative terrain. There is also some evidence from the early literature of the region that this value was linked to Puritanical / Congregationalist religious beliefs.

The thinking is that the imprint of this early value on self-reliance lives on to an extent in the region, although I certainly realise it's not exclusive to New England by any means!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
One thing that is different about New England is its towns, including the famous New England town meeting. I am suprised this was not really mentioned instead of all these ethnic theories.
Actually, I did talk about that quite a bit in my first post. But I too am surprised that people seemed to focus on the ethnic element.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
And to someone who actually said it a page or two ago, New Englanders DO NOT speak with a English accent!
I don't think that was what Trimac was saying (if that's who you're responding to). He was saying that the New England accent seemed about as English to him as the Australian accent (his own). I wouldn't go quite as far, because the Australian accent did develop after many important changes in British English that occurred after the settlement of the United States, but there is some truth to his statement.

The relevant characteristics here are 1) non-rhoticity, 2) the trap-bath split (which is recessive but still heard), 3) a rounded low back vowel, 4) lack of tense-lax neutralization, and possibly 5) the horse-hoarse distinction (and while very recessive, I think New England is the only place in the English-speaking world where the distinction can still be heard). These are the features that tend to make New England accents sound more "English" than other North American dialects -- some of them were inherited straight from the East Anglian founders, others were due to close cross-Atlantic commercial ties between the two areas in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

For all intents and purposes, New England accents pattern much more closely to General American than they do to Received Pronunciation, but the traces of English influence are still there. When I lived in the UK, people sometimes commented that I didn't even sound American.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2009, 09:45 PM
 
1,645 posts, read 3,191,396 times
Reputation: 1381
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidyankee764 View Post
No part of CT identifies with Boston. Even in far Northeastern CT, you're still a ways from Boston as metro Boston does not stretch into CT.

And I agree with those who say CT is the "overlap" state. Certain Bostonians on here don't like that, however.
Obviously most New Englanders don't commute to Boston, but Boston is "the big city" of the region (New England), similar to how New York City is the big city of the Mid-Atlantic states (NY, NJ, PA). Conflict arises when those in southern CT begin to identify with the NYC metro area and Mid-Atlantic culture rather than their traditional regional heritage.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top