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Old 11-14-2009, 09:48 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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QUOTE from Verseau: I don't think that was what Trimac was saying (if that's who you're responding to). He was saying that the New England accent seemed about as English to him as the Australian accent (his own). I wouldn't go quite as far, because the Australian accent did develop after many important changes in British English that occurred after the settlement of the United States, but there is some truth to his statement.

The relevant characteristics here are 1) non-rhoticity, 2) the trap-bath split (which is recessive but still heard), 3) a rounded low back vowel, 4) lack of tense-lax neutralization, and possibly 5) the horse-hoarse distinction (and while very recessive, I think New England is the only place in the English-speaking world where the distinction can still be heard). These are the features that tend to make New England accents sound more "English" than other North American dialects -- some of them were inherited straight from the East Anglian founders, others were due to close cross-Atlantic commercial ties between the two areas in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

For all intents and purposes, New England accents pattern much more closely to General American than they do to Received Pronunciation, but the traces of English influence are still there. When I lived in the UK, people sometimes commented that I didn't even sound American. [/quote]




I am going to ask you point blank, do you think New Englanders speak the English language with a English accent and not an American accent?

If you do, do you think this English accent ends magically at the New England borders with New York State and Canada?

Last edited by LINative; 11-14-2009 at 09:51 PM.. Reason: messed up quote somehow
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:57 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
Obviously most New Englanders don't commute to Boston, but Boston is "the big city" of the region (New England), similar to how New York City is the big city of the Mid-Atlantic states (NY, NJ, PA). Conflict arises when those in southern CT begin to identify with the NYC metro area and Mid-Atlantic culture rather than their traditional regional heritage.
Did you forget about Philadelphia?

Also, I think it is up to people in Connecticut who they identify with, whether it is New York, Boston, Providence or Hartford.

They could even identify with all of them or even no city at all if they so choose.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:26 PM
 
Location: New Hampshire
2,257 posts, read 6,982,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I am going to ask you point blank, do you think New Englanders speak the English language with a English accent and not an American accent?

If you do, do you think this English accent ends magically at the New England borders with New York State and Canada?
Huh? No. Not sure where you got that impression...?

Besides the fact that I explicitly stated that New England English is closer to General American than Received Pronunciation, remember that there's no such thing as a single "American" or single "English" accent.

However, several of the linguistic features I cited do "magically" stop somewhere east of the Hudson River and also at the Canadian border (most of the other side of the border is French-speaking, and in New Brunswick there is some cross-border diffusion but the political boundary with the US does seem to play an important role in dialect development across Canada).

Again, these dialect boundaries have a lot to with historical settlement patterns. Although I should note that the isogloss for many of the "British-sounding" features of NE English is actually located along the Connecticut River and the Green Mountains, meaning that the "stereotypical" New England accents are really located to the east.

I apologize if I used too much linguistic jargon in my last post, but it was the only way I knew how to describe the distinctive features of NE dialects.

Last edited by Verseau; 11-14-2009 at 10:34 PM..
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Did you forget about Philadelphia?

Also, I think it is up to people in Connecticut who they identify with, whether it is New York, Boston, Providence or Hartford.

They could even identify with all of them or even no city at all if they so choose.
Philadelphia has no relevance to the discussion. It is never ranked with the major world cities (considered to be London, New York City, Paris, Rome, and Tokyo) and its influence in the Mid-Atlantic is eclipsed by NYC.

And that's a bit of a sick idea. Why would they choose to identify with another state's capital or metro area? To spite their own state? It's not even logical.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:28 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
Philadelphia has no relevance to the discussion. It is never ranked with the major world cities (considered to be London, New York City, Paris, Rome, and Tokyo) and its influence in the Mid-Atlantic is eclipsed by NYC.

And that's a bit of a sick idea. Why would they choose to identify with another state's capital or metro area? To spite their own state? It's not even logical.
Ahhh but someone from the Philadelphia area might think it is relevant (see your post #100), not to mention Washington/Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Buffalo. While everyone recognizes that NYC is the biggest city in the NE, I do not think that people in these larger metro areas really care and need to recognize NYC before their own cities.

Even here in Suffolk, there are people here who rarely ever go to NYC (except for maybe Queens) and are doing just fine. Even though most of us might say are missing out on a lot of things, they could care less.


BTW, if you think it is a sick idea for people in Connecticut to identify with another state's capital or metro area, why should they identify with Boston instead of Hartford?
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:50 AM
 
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I think you'll find that most native Nutmeggers identifity mostly with their own home towns. And I don't mean the cities per se but the towns or suburbs where they live or were born and raised. New England is very parochial in that respect especially outside of Boston. I suspect if you ask someone from Needham or Revere where they are from and they may say Boston. But ask someone from Litchfield, Simsbury or West Hartford where they are from and they will not say Hartford, but will say Litchfield, Simsbury or Hartford.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Coastal Northeast
16,771 posts, read 23,222,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
And that's a bit of a sick idea. Why would they choose to identify with another state's capital or metro area? To spite their own state? It's not even logical.
Why wouldn't they? For someone living in Greenwich, Stamford, Darien or New Canaan, it would be completely illogical (and elitist) for them to claim they have zero connection with New York.

Your user ID says it all - you're reluctant to accept what is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
But ask someone from Litchfield, Simsbury or West Hartford where they are from and they will not say Hartford, but will say Litchfield, Simsbury or Hartford.
This is so true. I've always wondered why CT is like that. Even in Fairfield County, they will not say "Fairfield", they'll say Ridgefield, Norwalk or Stratford. But if you ask someone from Westchester or Bergen where they're from, they'll say Westchester or Bergen.

Last edited by kidyankee764; 11-15-2009 at 07:38 AM..
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Old 11-15-2009, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verseau View Post
I don't think that diversity and tolerance are always directly correlated, and I do think that non-diverse areas are capabling of espousing values of tolerance and openness.
I do agree with the above, but you also have to be able to "walk the walk", as well as "talk the talk".

On the Denver forum a while back, an Italian-American family was moving to Denver from Minneapolis. They wanted to know if there was any discrimination against Italians in Denver, as in MPLS, people were constantly "joking" with them about belonging to the Mafia, etc. Now people in MPLS for the most part think they are very progressive, but there aren't many Italians there. Just one example.
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:25 AM
 
1,645 posts, read 3,196,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Ahhh but someone from the Philadelphia area might think it is relevant (see your post #100), not to mention Washington/Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Buffalo. While everyone recognizes that NYC is the biggest city in the NE, I do not think that people in these larger metro areas really care and need to recognize NYC before their own cities.

Even here in Suffolk, there are people here who rarely ever go to NYC (except for maybe Queens) and are doing just fine. Even though most of us might say are missing out on a lot of things, they could care less.


BTW, if you think it is a sick idea for people in Connecticut to identify with another state's capital or metro area, why should they identify with Boston instead of Hartford?
Washington D.C. and Baltimore? Maryland is not one of the Mid-Atlantic states, nor is D.C. Obviously people in Pennsylvania will identify more with Philadelphia and Pittsburgh before they identify with New York City, but it doesn't change the economic reality of what dominates the Mid-Atlantic states (in terms of cities). Buffalo? I don't think anyone except those who actually live in Buffalo identify it as their city. It's mostly known for the wings in its namesake and just generally being rundown and depressing.

I rarely go to NYC in general (although ironically I was there last night, couldn't wait to get back home), even though my county in Northern NJ is classified as part of the NYC metropolitan area.

I guess in an ideal world it would be fantastic for CT'ers to identify with Hartford over Boston, but in reality, I've been to Hartford, as I have family in Rocky Hill, about 1/2 hour away, and it is an uninspiring, rundown city. This is not to bash Connecticut as I actually enjoy many areas within the state, but the cities are mostly trash (Similar to NJ). I like New Haven though.
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Coastal Northeast
16,771 posts, read 23,222,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
I guess in an ideal world it would be fantastic for CT'ers to identify with Hartford over Boston, but in reality, I've been to Hartford, as I have family in Rocky Hill, about 1/2 hour away, and it is an uninspiring, rundown city. This is not to bash Connecticut as I actually enjoy many areas within the state, but the cities are mostly trash (Similar to NJ). I like New Haven though.
I'd have to agree with this, for the most part. The downtowns of the CT cities (Hartford, Waterbury, Bridgeport) are thriving Monday-Friday from 9-5. But once the affluent suburbanites head out of town in their foreign luxury vehicles, these cities become a different world.

I do agree about New Haven too. Very vibrant, small city with lots to do and some fantastic restaurants. Artsy as well.

That said - nobody in CT really identifies with Boston. In northern and eastern CT, and western to a degree, they identify with New England - but New England is not just Boston, my good friend.
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