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Old 11-10-2009, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,275,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidyankee764 View Post
Oh, absolutely! I completely agree. CT is New England, but much of the state is a different New England than what most believe. Think lots of trees, stone walls with white fences built on top of them (Had trouble uploading the pic so see below), colonial homes with 1 acre of land and, again, lots of trees.

There are tons of middle class suburbs in CT (Milford, East Haven, Manchester, Bethel, Prospect). That said, there are just as many towns in CT that think they're better than the world in nearly every aspect. They are mostly along the shoreline, but they are still plentiful in the Litchfield Hills area and the Hartford area.

Many towns in extreme eastern CT (where Wavehunter is from) are working class and a bit more rural, but unfortunately these are sparsely populated. The vast majority of the population in CT is located in the incredibly pretentious area closer to NYC.

Now don't get me wrong, I do love Connecticut and think it is a great, beautiful state that has a high standard of living. But when I moved away, I realized how incredibly.....corny?.... people are there. It is truly the setting of a mixture of Stepford Wives and Desperate Housewives. No really, it is. LOL



Actually, there are plenty of "tough" cities in CT. Bridgeport, Hartford, Norwalk, New Haven, Waterbury are all rough inner cities that are close to 90% minority where opportunities are, unfortunately, much less than the incredibly wealthy, 98% white suburbs a few miles away. The disparity between rich and poor in CT is the largest I've seen anywhere on the planet - and I'm fairly well-traveled.


Sorry to go off topic. But one thing I said should lay this out well to those who don't know CT well - that the vast majority of CT's population lies within the NYC metro area. This is certainly why so many identify with NYC over New England.
Well yeah, but even those cities don't really hold a candle to Newark, Trenton, Camden etc. Norwalk, innercity? hmm...Yeah, your second paragraph is basically what I was trying to say--Southern CT in the NYC Metro is more "Mid-Atlantic" than New England. I've never lived in CT, but my mom grew up there and my dad moved there from New York after he graduated college so I have a lot of family and friends in CT/NY area. I don't know too much about the rest of New England, except for maybe Providence, which I've visited once in a while.

Last edited by cpterp; 11-10-2009 at 09:45 PM..
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:17 PM
 
Location: New Hampshire
2,257 posts, read 6,968,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Gee, considering your truculent knowledge of New England…I thought you were the expert (lol).
I actually have no idea what you're trying to say here. How can knowledge be truculent anyway? I may have come off a bit strong on my initial reply, but there was nothing vitriolic about my arguments. I was just irritated by 1) your very condescending tone and 2) your radical conviction that Northern and Southern New England have nothing in common. Is it so much to ask that you cut me a little slack on either issue for the sake of a civil debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
The values of education, and social tolerance have little to do with Northern New England. Statistically, long time residents are neither educated nor social tolerant.
Wow.

I don't even know where to begin here. First, let's assume that support for gay marriage is a relatively good modern barometer of "social tolerance." Now let's compare support for gay marriage in the 65+ age group across the United States:



Even in the oldest age group, the northern New England states are remarkably high on the list, with VT surpassing CT and RI, and NH virtually identical to CT. On the other hand, other "I-95 Corridor states" like Pennsylvania and Maryland are significantly lower. It's a shame their social enlightenment hasn't reached northern New England, isn't it? Oh, we're so backwards.

Anecdotally, WMUR conducted a poll in New Hampshire during last year's election season which found that support for Obama was directly correlated to length of residence in New Hampshire; the newest residents were the most likely to support the conservatives.

As for education... I'd really love to see your data. History would seem to disagree with you, whether in the founding of Dartmouth College in the middle of rural northern New England in 1769, the establishment of some of the best public universities and colleges in the country, especially for largely rural states (UVM 1791, UMaine 1865, UNH 1866), public school systems that are consistently ranked the very best in the nation (along with the southern New England states), or strong contenders for two of the best boarding schools in the country: Phillips Exeter Academy (1781) and St. Paul's School (1856), among a plethora of others -- I think the value on education in northern New England has been there for a long time.

Turning towards a less qualitative definition of the value placed on education in northern New England, I find that the methodology behind the Morgan Quitno "Smartest State" rankings is pretty comprehensive and relevant to the discussion at hand. I'm not sure how the most recent results differ from these 06-07 results, but you'll notice that New England rounds out the top 15 states, with VT significantly in the lead and all of the northern NE states surpassing Rhode Island. New York and Maryland are further down the list, for what it's worth.

And just looking at a single factor used in the evaluation -- population with bachelor's degrees -- we see an even clearer image of this reality:



If historical precedent isn't enough for you, you can see that northern New England is very well-educated today. There are extremely few other rural areas of the United States with similarly well-educated populations. Educational attainment rates are lower in areas of northern NE that immediately border uninhabited areas, but even areas in southern NE that do not fall within a relatively compact radius of the major cities belong to the same bracket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Unlike you, I have done several studies on the demographics of northern New England…and words like education and social tolerance are quite a stretch.
Unlike you, I live in northern New England, and I know that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
This area has only changed because the influences from points south.
Haha, so northern and southern New England are at a complete cultural disconnect, but any positive cultural characteristics in northern New England must come from points south? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
By the way… self-reliance is a common rural trait: Go to Montana or Wyoming and you’ll see. Northern New England has no market on self-reliance (lol).
Did I ever suggest that self-reliance was unique to New England? No. But I did say that it is one trait of many that define New Englanders as a cultural group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
I’m not really sure what your point is? The Irish/Italian communities in places like CT/RI and parts of MA…are similar to Irish or Italian –American communities anywhere in the USA.
First of all, I don't think that these ethnically homogeous towns and cities still exist anywhere in New England. That kind of "ghettoization" tends to be characteristic of very recent immigrant groups -- as in the case of Hispanic immigrants in parts of the modern-day Providence area, for example.

Secondly, while there are obviously some similarities between the traditions and customs of Italian-Americans in Massachusetts and, say, Illinois, these Italian-Americans are culturally more American than they are Italian. As such, they have more in common with other Americans in their immediate cultural region than they do with members of the same ancestry group who live hundreds or thousands of miles away. An O'Brien in Chicago is culturally a Midwesterner; an O'Brien in Boston is culturally a New Englander. These people are not right off the boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
If by “local culture”, you mean they become a hybrid of Yankee/English – Irish/Italian traditions…nothing could be further from the truth! The Irish strongholds in MA and Italian dominated southern CT have taken “little or nothing” from the Yankee cultural ways.
According to this logic, the "Irish strongholds" and "Italian dominated" areas should be 100% culturally Irish and Italian. What on Earth are you talking about? These immigrants took *nothing* from the existing local culture? I suppose they're still speaking Gaelic and Italian for that matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Also, you seem to be under the false impression that the Irish and Italian-Americans are newcomers to places like CT/RI and parts of MA: The Irish arrived almost 120 years ago (1880’s) and many of the Italians (around 1900)…they “are” the local culture.
I'm not an idiot. I know my history. Where did I ever give you this idea? And just so you know, Irish immigration peaked about 40 years earlier than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
A stone wall on someone’s property in CT or RI doesn’t give they Yankee culture (lol).
Cute, but again I never even remotely suggested this idea. Don't be absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
The Irish dominate politics in CT/RI/and parts of metro MA…the Yankee/English “local cultural influence” is about zero.
Explain to me what defines "Irish politics" or "English politics." I explained in my previous post that the Irish are not a homogenous political voting bloc as they were in the 19th Century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
One of the oldest African-American settlements on the US mainland is in New Haven, CT Newhallville area. There has been a African community here for almost 200 years, with strong ties to the Gullas in the low country of South Carolina and Georgia. Are people in Connecticut cutural tied to the cutural of the Lowcountry of South Carolina?
This is not even related to the point I was making. In fact, it's rather similar to your argument that European ancestry groups in NE are culturally more similar to geographically distant counterparts than to "Yankees" who live next door to them. For that matter, what exactly constitutes these "strong ties" to the Gullas that you're talking about? Do they still communicate with each other?

All immigrants to New England, be they African, Italian, Irish, etc., arrived first in an area that was dominated by a particular culture of Anglo origin. First of all, these English-Americans never disappeared from the areas that the immigrants arrived in. Secondly, it's not as if these immigrants had a single shared culture that displaced that of the natives. Their cultural roots were diverse, not cohesive, and the only "common denominator" that existed was the existing local culture. That's not to suggest that these groups did not have an important impact in reshaping the local culture, but to suggest that they wiped it out completely is, well, nuts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
By the way..there is no such thing as NYC culture (lol). What there is “Metropolitan culture”.
So there is nothing culturally distinct about NYC? I'd love to hear some New Yorkers' opinions on that.

For that matter, I'd love to hear what people in Philadelphia or Baltimore or Washington think of this cultural classification you've provided for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Despite the myths out there today…many urban/suburban regions of the USA have congealed into massive metro’s… where the local historical culture has been obliterated by time and expansion.

In 1961, French geographer published a monumental study after 20 years of research from Washington DC to Boston, MA. Gottmann’s book and research showed that the region from Washington DC to Boston, MA had become one urbanized/suburbanized corridor. This is where the term “Megalopolis” was first used. The “dominant theme” in Megalopolis was the interconnections between the Northeastern Atlantic States (now known as the I-95 states). He augured that the cultural identity of the DC to Boston corridor had been obliterated by this urban/suburban growth. This was in 1961. Google it.
I'm familiar with Gottmann's work, thanks. And you're radically exaggerating and misrepresenting his observations. Absolutely nowhere does he suggest that the cultural identity of BosWash was "obliterated" by urban growth. As you pointed out, his main argument was one of interconnections. There's no doubt that these interconnections have strong cultural implications, but they do not entail a supplantation or total homogeonization of local culture. And for what it's worth, I know that a lot of contemporary geographers have argued that some of the trends of urban coalescence and interconnectivity that Gottmann observed in BosWash in the '50s have been reversing.

I'd like to see anyone back you up on the claim that BosWash is a homogeonous cultural region. What about similar examples of megalopolis, like the even larger Tokyo Belt in Japan? Would you argue that urbanization has "obliterated" local cultures here as well? How about in the UK, where London, Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Sunderlan, Newcastle, Edinburgh, and Glasgow are cited as an example of megalopolis with a population comparable to that of BosWash -- would you go so far as to say that London and Glasgow are more similar to each other than either is to neighboring areas of England and Scotland, respectively?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Not real sure what Minnesota has to do with anything? You asserted that the New England states share a very similar climate…scientifically this is untrue. Connecticut and Rhode Island have a climate closer to NJ than to the Northern New England region. I’m not real sure what that has to do with Minnesota (lol).
It was a reference to the thread in which you introduced everyone to your passionate desire to show that Connecticut has nothing to do with the rest of New England, climate included. You were continually arguing that CT has a milder climate than much of the Midwest (in more generalized terms), a fact which nobody in the thread was even debating, since the OP was comparing Upper Midwest states to states in northern New England.

If you read my original post in this thread carefully, you'll notice that I discussed both climate and geology as working in tandem to define the economic development of New England. While the climate of (some portions of) Connecticut may be more similar to New Jersey than neighboring areas of southern MA, the geology of MA and CT are significantly more similar and this is a huge factor in the decline of agriculture in New England versus the other Northeastern states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Well, I think what might have made me think that was when I read lines like this that you wrote...“In my original post, I did not address the problematic case of Connecticut”...

How is Connecticut a problem? Is it possible that the diversity of Connecticut is really the way it’s supposed to be. In fact, we think of it in the reverse… the problematic case of economic, socially, and culturally, isolated Northern New England. Perhaps there was more to this statement than meets the eye?
I apologize for my poor word choice, but I meant that Connecticut is "problematic" in the purely scientifc sense of the word because its modern-day culture challenges the historical geographical definition of New England. The fact that you read so much into it tells me a lot about you, and I'm rather offended by your implication that I am somehow opposed to diversity. This is really getting ludicrous. I'm not angered by your condescending attitude towards northern New England, I just find it pretty sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
PS. Attempting to try to get others to line up with you in a debate only shows the weakness in your position. Just keep that in mind (lol).
How mature. I do not know nor have I ever spoken with anyone else in this thread. Keep showing your true colors.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:18 AM
 
321 posts, read 639,916 times
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Im really sick of this Bos-Wash corridor nonsense. I was born in Portsmouth NH and grew up in Waltham, Ma, have lived in NYC, Chicago, and currently split my time between Boston and Southern Maine. While you're right about Connecticut not identifying with New England, the same cannot be said about RI, and especially not anywhere east of Springfield in Ma. While you waste your time debating the influence of English Puritanism (and btw when did you become Max Weber? arent you a geographer?), youre missing the point that New England clearly has a distinct identity. You said yourself than you havent travelled further north than RI in 20 years and I suggest you do. No one in eastern Ma sees themselves as part of a Bos-Wash megalopolis of I-95 corridor. That whole reductionist theory has been soundly rejected and has shown little merit. The best place to look as an indicator is news consumption and paper circulation- the New York Times company can attest to the failures of such thinking. Your theory is so reductionist it's silly.
Seriously of the voting patterns and low crime rates that are vastly different from the rest of the country (and northeast at that) isnt enough to suggest to a geographer (as you purport to be) that a cultural identity could exist than i don't know what will.
Also, Bostonians see our city as cultural and economic capital of New England- and identify with northern new england culture as incipient from ours for sure. Bostonians also travel throughout NE and many own property in Northern NE and identify either Maine or NH as second homes.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:22 AM
 
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Verseau hinted at a fascinating indirect relation between type of soil and voting patterns.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:57 AM
 
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These comments that some people make claiming that Connecticut is not a part of New England is absurd. My family has been in New England since the Mayflower arrived on this continent and they live all over the region. To date, I've yet to hear someone say that CT is no longer a part of New England. My family lives in every New England state and each one has its own subtle differences from the others including the sub regions as someone pointed out a bit earlier. A perfect example: The NE Kingdom of VT is totally different than the rest of VT.

Granted, the Fairfield County area is heavily influenced by NYC both socially and economically but it still has a New England identity and its politics are ultimately influenced at the State Capitol in Hartford. I've spent enough time in NY and CT to be able to tell a difference between the two states, even in Fairfield County.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Coastal Northeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
These comments that some people make claiming that Connecticut is not a part of New England is absurd. My family has been in New England since the Mayflower arrived on this continent and they live all over the region. To date, I've yet to hear someone say that CT is no longer a part of New England. My family lives in every New England state and each one has its own subtle differences from the others including the sub regions as someone pointed out a bit earlier. A perfect example: The NE Kingdom of VT is totally different than the rest of VT.

Granted, the Fairfield County area is heavily influenced by NYC both socially and economically but it still has a New England identity and its politics are ultimately influenced at the State Capitol in Hartford. I've spent enough time in NY and CT to be able to tell a difference between the two states, even in Fairfield County.
I think everyone agrees that CT is part of New England. We're talking about what metropolitan area the population identifies with the most. Seeing that the majority of CT's population is in the NYC metro area with mass transit into the city, I think that's a no-brainer.

Moreover, I said many Bostonians I know jokingly say CT is not part of New England. Everyone knows their Geography - it's all in good fun.

And San Diego politics are filtered through Sacramento - doesn't mean their culture is the same (and actually, they are quite different!)
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexus View Post
Even the rural areas are liberal? This is news to me. Maybe my wife and I should investigate New England as an alternative to northern CA. I favor any region that is liberal and places a high value on education.
You're a guy!? Sorry I just thought by your name and some of your thread starters...well...you know.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:48 PM
 
Location: USA East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verseau View Post
Is it so much to ask that you cut me a little slack on either issue for the sake of a civil debate?.
A civil debate?

Go back and read the FIRST LINE of my post that you took such exception to. It is you who have feebly tried to make it personal.

Next…your pasting of charts and figures of gay marriage…etc is an another misleading attempt by you to paint Northern New England into something it historically has never been. I won’t argue the point that the only reason places like VT, NH, and even ME have seen a change in their social view “on paper” is mostly because of immigration of from other areas of the USA (mostly the Northeast corridor I-95 ) into the region: Places like southern New Hampshire around Nashua, parts of VT, the Maine coast…etc have changed socially because of an influx of those fleeing the costs/issues of the nearby I-95 corridor over the last 25 - 40 years (or longer). There are 60 million people between Washington DC and the Tri-State area…your only fooling yourself if you think change has come from within Northern New England.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verseau View Post
Did I ever suggest that self-reliance was unique to New England? No. But I did say that it is one trait of many that define New Englanders as a cultural group.
NO... but you did say that it is one trait of many that define New Englanders as a cultural group. Based on who’s perspective? Your biased Eastern USA views? I’ll bet folks in North Dakota or Minnesota think that “self-reliance” is a Midwestern value…or people Arkansas think it’s a Southern value. Don’t you think it’s a bit pompous and insulting to claim that value as belonging to “your part of the USA”? Maybe you haven’t traveled as much as you say you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verseau View Post
First of all, I don't think that these ethnically homogeous towns and cities still exist anywhere in New England. That kind of "ghettoization" tends to be characteristic of very recent immigrant groups -- as in the case of Hispanic immigrants in parts of the modern-day Providence area, for example.Secondly, while there are obviously some similarities between the traditions and customs of Italian-Americans in Massachusetts and, say, Illinois, these Italian-Americans are culturally more American than they are Italian. As such, they have more in common with other Americans in their immediate cultural region than they do with members of the same ancestry group who live hundreds or thousands of miles away. An O'Brien in Chicago is culturally a Midwesterner; an O'Brien in Boston is culturally a New Englander. These people are not right off the boat..
.

You seem to have missed the point (or tried a feeble attempt to spin it against me) about my map of those of Irish/Italian ancestry. I am saying just the opposite…YOU act like anyone who is of Irish/Italian ancestry is located in “ethnically homogenous” or only in fringe metro areas. Quite the opposite…my point is that those of Irish/Italian ancestry “are the dominate European ancestry” in parts of New England” – rural, suburban, urban. It is their European cultural (if any) that has the strongest influence in places like CT…NOT the New England English/Yankees! The most rural area of Connecticut and parts of RI/MA are just as likely to have someone of Irish or Italian ancestry than English/Yankee ancestry (in some areas then even dominate). Nice try though.

Finally…my point was simple… your original post full of maps tried to give the misleading impression to anyone who is considering moving to “New England” (CT included) that the influence of Yankee/English culture is the dominate theme in all of the New England states. No matter what position you take…no matter how many maps you want to past in…that is just totally untrue as far as Connecticut at a minimum…and in a growing number of areas of RI and MA. About 75% of the residents of CT I have come in contact with… have little or no connection to the other New England states (especially Northern New England) and are no more or less “New England/Yankee” in their customs, beliefs, social interactions…etc than people in Akron or Baltimore. I could care less if you want to admit that to yourself or not (lol).

You tried to paint the six state New England region into something YOU want it to be.

Let’s face it - that is what you are all fired up about. Just like the debate with MASS/VT and WILW …when your false images are shattered, when the propaganda you try to get outsiders to view your part of the USA they way “you want to presented” is challenged… …then it’s kill the messenger, discredit them/the information, or twist the facts. Isn’t that what this is really about? The guy who is on City Data in Portland, OR or Mobile, Al HAS to see New England the way people like you and the others want it presented. The constant shots about the climate debate a MONTH AGO…just shows the lingering anger that because someone dared challenged bold false statements - that New England is the coldest region in the USA (it’s not even close) or the snowiest region in the USA (it’s not even close)…and someone dared say that it is scientifically untrue ( and provided the facts to back it up)… it’s get the teeth out (lol).

When we cut away all the BS - isn’t that what this is really about: You wanted to present unified New England into what YOU wanted it to be: the homogeneous, Yankee/English dominated cultural region, where the history of the English/Yankees is the center of the cultural identity that most people in the region identity with…except for those “ethnics “ in the metro areas…and someone dared present a part of “Yankee New England” that is the polar opposite.

You may fool others…but you don’t fool me for a second. I can see people like you coming from a mile away.

Last edited by wavehunter007; 11-11-2009 at 07:57 PM..
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:57 PM
 
Location: New Hampshire
2,257 posts, read 6,968,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
A civil debate?

Go back and read the FIRST LINE of my post that you took such exception to. It is you who have feebly tried to make it personal.
Saying "no disrespect" does not nullify your condescending tone. Stating that you have a degree in geography and sprinkling in a patronizing "lol" for good measure does not strike me as particularly civil.

I really do apologize if you feel that I've overreacted, but you have to understand that you're coming off as very dismissive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Next…your pasting of charts and figures of gay marriage…etc is an another misleading attempt by you to paint Northern New England into something it historically has never been.
If you're so convinced of this fact, then could you please support it with some data?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
I won’t argue the point that the only reason places like VT, NH, and even ME have seen a change in their social view “on paper”
If you haven't been to northern New England in 30 years, how do you know what the social views of northern New Englanders are "off paper"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
is mostly because of immigration of from other areas of the USA (mostly the Northeast corridor I-95 ) into the region: Places like southern New Hampshire around Nashua, parts of VT, the Maine coast…etc have changed socially because of an influx of those fleeing the costs/issues of the nearby I-95 corridor over the last 25 - 40 years (or longer).
Again, I challenge you to justify this claim. Are you really saying that northern New England wasn't progressive 150 years ago?

There is no doubt that the politics of the region have been influenced by immigration from southern New England and other areas of the Northeast. But just because Vermont wasn't the "hippie mecca" it is today 50 years ago does not mean that the state did not espouse progressive politics back then. The political climate was certainly not identical, but your bold claim that "social tolerance" is a modern phenomenon in the region has not been supported at all.

As for New Hampshire, the numerous immigrants from southern New England (and the Boston metro in particular) are often attracted to the state's lower tax burden / smaller government and consequently are often of a conservative political persuasion, not overwhelmingly liberal as you are suggesting. You need only look at the party affiliations of state representatives:



The two areas with the strongest Republican affiliations, the southern suburbs near the MA border and the Lakes Region, are coincidentally also the two areas with the highest percentages of residents born out of state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
NO... but you did say that it is one trait of many that define New Englanders as a cultural group. Based on who’s perspective? Your biased Eastern USA views? I’ll bet folks in North Dakota or Minnesota think that “self-reliance” is a Midwestern value…or people Arkansas think it’s a Southern value. Don’t you think it’s a bit pompous and insulting to claim that value as belonging to “your part of the USA”? Maybe you haven’t traveled as much as you say you have.
1) You're calling me out on lack of experience with other regions of the US, when you've barely set foot in the very region that this debate is about?

2) You've completely missed the point I just made. I never said that "self-reliance" is exclusive to New England -- but it is nonetheless a value of New Englanders, just as it may be a value of Midwesterners or others. But it is a tiny piece of a much larger picture. It is one characteristic of many that combine to define the culture. Why don't you do a study and ask people from other parts of the US what they think of New Englanders? I'm sure you'll see some patterns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
YOU act like anyone who is of Irish/Italian ancestry is located in “ethnically homogenous” or only in fringe metro areas.
Show me where I have explicitly suggested this. I have continually attempted to debunk this idea since you posted the Census map showing the counties of southern New England as solid blocs of Irish and Italian ancestry. And "fringe metro areas"? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Quite the opposite…my point is that those of Irish/Italian ancestry “are the dominate European ancestry” in parts of New England” – rural, suburban, urban. It is their European cultural (if any) that has the strongest influence in places like CT…NOT the New England English/Yankees!
This argument is just going to keep going in circles unless you define what constitutes this "non-Yankee culture." In my initial post, I outlined some of the cultural features that seem to be common throughout New England. As of yet, you have not provided a comparable set of cultural characteristics that delineate southern NE from the north.

Please, please explain to me how Irish or Italian culture is more prevalent in CT than Yankee culture. What characteristics of Irish or Italian culture do you see? Does your definition of "culture" exclude things like language, basic habitual behaviors, or ways of interacting with others? I am very doubtful that CT behaves more like Italy than northern New England with respect to any of these characteristics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
The most rural area of Connecticut and parts of RI/MA are just as likely to have someone of Irish or Italian ancestry than English/Yankee ancestry (in some areas then even dominate). Nice try though.
Hate to break it to you, but the same is true of northern New England. In fact, looking at ancestry data for the three states, we can see that this region is not as homogenously "English" as would seem necessary for your argument in favor of this dramatic cultural division. Total reported primary ancestry groups for the three states:

French-Canadian: 681,698
English: 661,829
Irish: 578,309
German: 280,267
Italian: 235,471

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Finally…my point was simple… your original post full of maps tried to give the misleading impression to anyone who is considering moving to “New England” (CT included) that the influence of Yankee/English culture is the dominate theme in all of the New England states.
First of all, how was my post geared in any way towards anyone "who is considering moving to New England"? I provided a descriptive answer to the OP's question, which as you'll remember was:

"what exactly makes [New England] culturally different to other Northeastern states like New York or Pennsylvania?"

This was the question I attempted to answer. I never addressed the issue of how cultural features in some areas of New England may be shared with other Northeastern states, nor did I bring up my thoughts on the cultural divide in Connecticut or any other cultural differences in the region, because the OP specifically asked for common cultural elements within New England.

Only one of my maps dealt with the English origins of New England culture, and yet that's the sole issue you've continued to harp on about. I would love to hear your thoughts on language, industry and agriculture, urban planning, or social capital, but you have not mentioned these at all. Your only agenda appears to be distancing CT from the rest of New England in every way possible. Not once have you acknowledged a single cultural link between CT and the rest of New England, while I have repeatedly recognized that much of CT's population - and not the entirety of the landmass within its artificial borders - is more heavily influenced, culturally, by NYC.

But your war cry that CT has "little or NOTHING" to do with the culture of northern New England seems to show that you are desperate to prove something here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
About 75% of the residents of CT I have come in contact with… have little or no connection to the other New England states (especially Northern New England)
What constitutes a "connection"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
and are no more or less “New England/Yankee” in their customs, beliefs, social interactions…etc than people in Akron or Baltimore.
Not once have you defined specifically what these differences in customs, beliefs, or social interactions are. And while I recognize that much of CT feels quite culturally different from the rest of New England, a crucial point of my argument is that CT has more in common with this region than it does with, say, Baltimore. I have not seen you support this "cultural megalopolis" line of argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Let’s face it - that is what you are all fired up about.
I'm quite capable of having a civil debate about something as banal as cultural geography -- it's not like we're talking about abortion or something here -- but I'm going to get "fired up" anytime that I'm treated with condescension and dismissiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Just like the debate with MASS/VT and WILW …when your false images are shattered, when the propaganda you try to get outsiders to view your part of the USA they way “you want to presented” is challenged… …then it’s kill the messenger, discredit them/the information, or twist the facts. Isn’t that what this is really about? The guy who is on City Data in Portland, OR or Mobile, Al HAS to see New England the way people like you and the others want it presented.
What on Earth are you talking about? I'm actively spinning "propaganda" when I talk about land use patterns and social capital? I think this assumption says a lot more about you than it does about me. I'm not on city-data to "present" my home state or my home region to anyone -- I'm here because I love geography, and because it's fun to give tips to people about where to go hiking or find a good meal in my area.

Why should I care what somebody in Portland, OR or Mobile, AL thinks about where I live? Do you? (As a matter of fact, I happen to enjoy living in a quiet, rural area and would be quite happy if the rest of country were unaware of New Hampshire's existence. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
The constant shots about the climate debate a MONTH AGO…just shows the lingering anger that because someone dared challenged bold false statements - that New England is the coldest region in the USA (it’s not even close) or the snowiest region in the USA (it’s not even close)…and someone dared say that it is scientifically untrue ( and provided the facts to back it up)
Hahahahaha. Go back and read the beginning of the thread. NOBODY ever claimed that New England was "the coldest region" or "the snowiest region" in the USA. By the way, let me repost for you what the OP's question was:

"My basic question is how do these two areas compare to each other as far as humidity tolerability in the summer and in the winter too? (talking like ohio/michigan/indiana vs new hampshire/maine)"

And suddenly you began a series of tirades on how CT is climactically distinct from New England. Scientifically sound? Absolutely. Relevant? This is why I'm suspicious of your position in this thread, because you obviously have some weird thing against New England. You imagined that there was a childish pissing contest going on about "who's colder," when nothing of the sort was going on until you turned the thread in that direction.

For the record, I can't speak at all for MassVt or WILW because I abandoned that thread after the third page. I wasn't one of the people debating you; I could see that you were selectively picking and choosing in order to compare apples and oranges, even suggesting that Missouri and Kansas aren't part of the Midwest for the sake of your argument. Ask the residents of those states what they think about that.

I had never given that stupid little thread a second thought until the current debate began, because it's now clear to me that you're not as immaculately objective as you claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
When we cut away all the BS - isn’t that what this is really about: You wanted to present unified New England into what YOU wanted it to be: the homogeneous, Yankee/English dominated cultural region, where the history of the English/Yankees is the center of the cultural identity that most people in the region identity with
Never once did I suggest that New England was a homogeneous cultural region, nor that it is "dominated" by English culture. For some reason, those ideas jumped into your head. What I did do is describe the cultural characteristics of New England that differentiate it from the other northeastern states (as per the OP's request), thus focusing on unifying factors.

I never talked about "identification" with English culture. I only talked about English settlement to show that these people played a tremendously important role in defining the culture of the region and that the region developed along a somewhat different historical trajectory than neighboring areas which were originally settled by other ethnic groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
…except for those “ethnics “ in the metro areas…and someone dared present a part of “Yankee New England” that is the polar opposite.
Here is where you make your biggest false assumption, and it is very offensive to me. First of all, you're implying that I'm simply ignorant of the ethnic heterogeneity in New England. I do actually have half a brain.

But the bigger offense is your implication that I have some desire to whitewash diversity. I'm sorry, but just because I'm from northern New England does not mean that I'm a bigot. This is ludicrously presumptuous. You're the first one to use the pejorative term "ethnics." Is this all because I posted a map showing that your Census map oversimplified ancestral diversity? I even acknowledged that the different ancestral groups were practically comparably distributed in most towns in New England, with minor statistical advantages in some areas.

You do realize that I'm not a "Yankee" myself, right? I have English blood, but I have even more French-Canadian blood and Irish blood and Abenaki blood and probably a plethora of other things. What interest do I have in whitewashing my own heritage?

I think the root of this whole debate lies in your misunderstanding of my initial post as a dogmatic declaration of New England's cultural homogeneity. I hope you see now how this wasn't my intent at all, so we can stop debating in this manner. I would indeed be open to an intelligent and non-dismissive discussion of the cultural differences within New England itself.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
4,028 posts, read 6,395,450 times
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Originally Posted by Verseau View Post
As for New Hampshire, the numerous immigrants from southern New England (and the Boston metro in particular) are often attracted to the state's lower tax burden / smaller government and consequently are often of a conservative political persuasion, not overwhelmingly liberal as you are suggesting. You need only look at the party affiliations of state representatives.
But how many people live in each of the areas?
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