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Old 12-17-2009, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
Lacking in what? Conspicuous consumerism? Anywhere U.S.A. blah? Cookie cutter developments as far as the eye can see? No discernable actual southwest culture?


ABQConvict
Lacking urban cores, large museums, large theaters, an International Airport where one could take a non-stop flight to Europe, Asia, or Latin American, international business (what I do in Phoenix), the nation's largest Art Walk (Phoenix First Friday), one of the nation's largest Hispanic/Chicano/Latino art and cultural centers, the world's most renowned Native American art collections and cultural assets including ancient ruins of one of the most advance Native civilizations in the Americas, incredible nightlife, all professional sports, and on and on. I could write a book.

I've had the unfortunate luck of being stationed in New Mexico and Albuquerque/Las Cruces...the "Land of Entrapment" and there is plenty of cookie cutter ticky tacky all over the U.S. including Las Cruces, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe (a Sedona, Jerome and Tucson copycat BTW)...
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
5,648 posts, read 7,451,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcorrales80 View Post
Lacking urban cores, large museums, large theaters, an International Airport where one could take a non-stop flight to Europe, Asia, or Latin American, international business (what I do in Phoenix), the nation's largest Art Walk (Phoenix First Friday), one of the nation's largest Hispanic/Chicano/Latino art and cultural centers, the world's most renowned Native American art collections and cultural assets including ancient ruins of one of the most advance Native civilizations in the Americas, incredible nightlife, all professional sports, and on and on. I could write a book.

I've had the unfortunate luck of being stationed in New Mexico and Albuquerque/Las Cruces...the "Land of Entrapment" and there is plenty of cookie cutter ticky tacky all over the U.S. including Las Cruces, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe (a Sedona, Jerome and Tucson copycat BTW)...
This lacks credibility. I'm sure you could write a book, but you may need an editor.

Tucson's downtown (although it is only a fraction of the size of Phoenix) and doesn't have the buildings that Phoenix has actually has a much better walkability factor. You won't find as many people milling around downtown Phoenix on a Friday/Saturday night as you will on Congress/4th Ave/University in Tucson...they'll usually be scattered around and in Tempe or Scottsdale instead. You are fortunate that ASU built a new campus downtown to attempt to bring your downtown more alive. Yes, there have been high rises condos/lofts built, but the vacancy rates are high and some have gone into foreclosure.

To say that the other cities in the SW lack in culture/the arts/museums is a blasphemy.

Your international flights from Phoenix consist of: London/Heathrow, Canada, Montego Bay (starting Dec 18), and Costa Rica (mostly seasonal), and Mexico. Tokyo (if launched), won't even happen until 2012. Even though you sort of have two hubs in US Airways and Southwest (not really a hub), there is room for improvement.

While I'm happy that Phoenix is "growing up", there really is no reason to belittle the other cities that perhaps have equal personality to them (for their sizes) than the city of Phoenix itself. Phoenix, being the largest city/metro in the Southwest is supposed to help represent the Southwest in a positive way; however when it's residents are apathetic and always looking down on the other cities in the Southwest, they're also missing out on the great things those other cities have to offer. It's not all about Phoenix.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 8,868,377 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiam View Post
This lacks credibility. I'm sure you could write a book, but you may need an editor.

Tucson's downtown (although it is only a fraction of the size of Phoenix) and doesn't have the buildings that Phoenix has actually has a much better walkability factor. You won't find as many people milling around downtown Phoenix on a Friday/Saturday night as you will on Congress/4th Ave/University in Tucson...they'll usually be scattered around and in Tempe or Scottsdale instead. You are fortunate that ASU built a new campus downtown to attempt to bring your downtown more alive. Yes, there have been high rises condos/lofts built, but the vacancy rates are high and some have gone into foreclosure.
Not sure where you live, but I live downtown and can attest to the much more walkable factors in central Phoenix/Tempe and Scottsdale not to mention that downtown Mesa, Glendale, and Chandler have larger walkable areas than Tucson or Albuquerque. Not only considering that light rail runs through all of Central Phoenix and Tempe, with over 28 stops along the way, but the historic neighborhoods and high rise living options in downtown, uptown, and midtown Phoenix far out weigh any "downtown" livability or walkability factor in the other cities combined. Now, lets forget about the First Friday Art Walk, and just look at what is available on a daily basis; nightclubs, universities, restaurants, arenas, events, cultural amenities, the largest Central Business District in the Southwest, etc it really doesn't take a scientist to figure out that no other Southwestern city comes close. There is only one condo tower in downtown Phoenix that COULD go into foreclosure and the vacancy rates in downtown are low; please link proof that it is not. One problem you'll run into, you WON'T find anything to support your claims. Also, the Central City and Tempe, Mesa, etc along the urban corridor and light rail line have seen some of the largest property value increases in the region. You must be from Tucson; it reads very clearly.

Quote:
To say that the other cities in the SW lack in culture/the arts/museums is a blasphemy.
Compared to what is offered in metro Phoenix, those other Southwestern "museums" are blasphemous.

Quote:
Your international flights from Phoenix consist of: London/Heathrow, Canada, Montego Bay (starting Dec 18), and Costa Rica (mostly seasonal), and Mexico. Tokyo (if launched), won't even happen until 2012. Even though you sort of have two hubs in US Airways and Southwest (not really a hub), there is room for improvement.
Is London not in Europe? Let's not forget that Lufthansa plans to restart its flights to Frankfurt and the Chinese airlines start-ups to Sky Harbor thanks to their investment in solar headquarters in metro Phoenix. So what inter-Continental flights can you take from Tuscon or Albuquerque???

Quote:
While I'm happy that Phoenix is "growing up", there really is no reason to belittle the other cities that perhaps have equal personality to them (for their sizes) than the city of Phoenix itself. Phoenix, being the largest city/metro in the Southwest is supposed to help represent the Southwest in a positive way; however when it's residents are apathetic and always looking down on the other cities in the Southwest, they're also missing out on the great things those other cities have to offer. It's not all about Phoenix.
I was responding to a poster who obviously, much like yourself, knows little about Phoenix. Just some clarification and not belittlement; reality. Remember, we are comparing SW cities, not Phoenix to New York City or Chicago...

I think you are missing the point of the discussion. We Phoenicians don't look down on Santa Fe, its a great little historic pueblo but hardly a city. In that regard, Tucson and Albuquerque have a lot of growing up to catch just Tempe or Scottsdale (cities with 180,000 and 250,000 residents).

Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-17-2009 at 02:26 PM..
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
5,648 posts, read 7,451,793 times
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[quote=fcorrales80;12069991]
Quote:


Not sure where you live, but I live downtown and can attest to the much more walkable factors in central Phoenix/Tempe and Scottsdale not to mention that downtown Mesa, Glendale, and Chandler have larger walkable areas then Tucson or Albuquerque. Not only considering the light rail runs through all of Central Phoenix and Tempe, with over 28 stops along the way, but the historic neighborhoods and high rise living options in downtown, uptown, and midtown Phoenix. Now, lets forget about the First Friday Art Walk, and just look at what is available on a daily basis; nightclubs, universities, the largest Central Business District in the Southwest, etc it really doesn't take a scientist to figure out that no other Southwestern city comes close. There is only one condo tower in downtown Phoenix that COULD go into foreclosure and the vacancy rates in downtown are low; please link proof that it is not. One problem you'll find, you WON'T find anything to support your claims. Also, the Central City and Tempe, Mesa, etc along the urban corridor and light rail line have seen some of the largest property value increases in the region. You must be from Tucson; it reads very clearly.



Compared to what is offered in metro Phoenix, those other Southwestern "museums" are blasphemous.



Is London not in Europe? Let's not forget that Lufthansa plans to restart its flights to Frankfurt and the Chinese airlines starts to Sky Harbor thanks to their investment in solar headquarters in metro Phoenix. So what inter-Continental flights can you take from Tuscon and Albuquerque???



I was responding to a post who obviously, much like yourself, know little about Phoenix. Just some clarification and not belittlement; reality. Remember, we are comparing SW cities, not Phoenix to New York City or Chicago...

I think you are missing the point of the discussion. We don't look down on Santa Fe, its a great little historic pueblo but hardly a city. In that regard, Tucson and Albuquerque have a lot of growing up to catch just Tempe or Scottsdale (cities with 180,000 and 250,000 residents).
I guess I'm hired as your editor.

No one is complaining that Phoenix doesn't offer MORE...it SHOULD. It's population is 4.2 million vs., say Tucson at 1,030,000. Again, unless there is a baseball/basketball game/concert/First Fridays in downtown PHX at night, you are hard-pressed to find more people around on a Friday/Saturday night. Yes, you can DRIVE to Scottsdale and walk, and then DRIVE to Tempe and walk, but the majority of the people do not end up in downtown PHX on a Friday/Saturday night, nor do they walk up and down Central Avenue.

Yes, I understand that Metro Light Rail exists, just as I'm very aware of the modern streetcar system that Tucson is also building.

There's more than ONE highrise condo tower looking at foreclosure, and no the vacancy rates for places like 44 Monroe among others is not low, it's high.

While the Valley has had some of the largest property value increases in past years, it has also had some of the largest property value decreases during the past year (where have you been living???). Even lower than Tucson.

RE: Flights -

Yes, London is in Europe, but you'd have a VERY hard time trying to get a non-stop flight this holiday season with British Airways workers on strike (UPDATE: the Strike was called off 4 hours ago - nice life for all of those who went through the process of rebooking for later dates). Lufthansa HAS had plans to restart it's flights for a few years now, but we're still waiting. I'm a little more pessimistic to think that all of a sudden Phoenix is going to get a direct flight to China just because of Chinese investment in solar energy here (I'm still waiting on that direct flight to Dubai)...Tucson and Albuquerque are not hubs for any airlines, so it doesn't make economic sense for them to have direct inter-continental flights. It's hard enough for Tucson to get direct flights because of the pricing differences between taking a flight out of TIA, and it's close proximity to Sky Harbor (that's not Tucson's fault).

I don't need to be told about Phoenix, I know enough about it (clearly more than some). There will come a time when people will tire of Phoenix and move, just like those who tired of LA and moved (no offense to LA which I love), and Tucson (and ABQ) will have their day in the sun. I'm not saying Tucson and Albuquerque are perfect, but fortunately for our cities, we've watched Phoenix grow, and we have learned not to make the same mistakes Phoenix made when it's growth exploded.

Last edited by AZLiam; 12-17-2009 at 02:54 PM..
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Concrete jungle where dreams are made of.
8,900 posts, read 13,244,626 times
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Las Vegas, love that city.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 8,868,377 times
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Quote:
AZLiam;12070394
I guess I'm hired as your editor.

No one is complaining that Phoenix doesn't offer MORE...it SHOULD. It's population is 4.2 million vs., say Tucson at 1,030,000. Again, unless there is a baseball/basketball game/concert/First Fridays in downtown PHX at night, you are hard-pressed to find more people around on a Friday/Saturday night. Yes, you can DRIVE to Scottsdale and walk, and then DRIVE to Tempe and walk, but the majority of the people do not end up in downtown PHX on a Friday/Saturday night, nor do they walk up and down Central Avenue.
And now you are fired, LOL! First off, the universities, nightclubs, restaurants, neighborhoods, and shops do not leave with the sporting event crowds. I now know you must be from Tucson. Actually, some of the largest nightspots in the region are in downtown Phoenix, including the largest gay club, Amsterdam, the largest upscale Latino club Sky Lounge and Bar Smith, and the largest artist colony in the region, Roosevelt Row which includes another nightlife scene and is home to First Fridays. Scottsdale is a drive OR one can take the bus or trolley to downtown Scottsdale form Tempe after the light rail; again something a Valley resident would know and not something an out-of-towner would know off hand; it is ok, now you know. And Central Ave is where those large gay clubs, cafés, and museums are in downtown, not to mention the main line of the light rail corridor, LOL! Wow, Tucson isn't that far, is it???

Quote:
Yes, I understand that Metro Light Rail exists, just as I'm very aware of the modern streetcar system that Tucson is also building.
The "modern street car Tucson is building?" What, will it take you 2 miles back and forth? You do realize the initial light rail line connects three city centers and will be expanded to four by 2015. By 2020 it will out-pace other systems and Tucson's little street car doesn't measure up by any standards. Again, one reason why it is silly to compare Phoenix, to other Southwest "cities." The Phoenix light rail line is also the most successful and heavily used initial line in the U.S...41,077 average daily riders for the month of October...The November numbers are much higher and will be "revealed" at the light rail one year celebration. Expect a big number again; compare that to Seattle's initial light rail line and they averaged 16,100 weekday riders...That is lower then Sunday/Holiday riders in Phoenix despite Seattle having a presumably more densely populated urban and light rail corridor.

Quote:
There's more than ONE high rise condo tower looking at foreclosure, and no the vacancy rates for places like 44 Monroe among others is not low, it's high
.

There is only one in foreclosure or near/planning to be in foreclosure. Also, 44 Monroe like the condo tower seeking foreclosure will restructure to become high end rentals and lofts because those vacancy rates in downtown are low; testament to a growing market of new residents and those not looking to buy yet, but to live.

Quote:
While the Valley has had some of the largest property value increases in past years, it has also had some of the largest property value decreases during the past year (where have you been living???). Even lower than Tucson.
And? No one denied that, but how soon we forget other recessions in Phoenix like the 80's real estate collapse that was worse; and included a 12% unemployment rate in Phoenix. This recession, metro Phoenix averaged a 15% decline in home values, lower than the 80's and an 8.6% unemployment rate, not very different from Tucson's and better than other large metro areas across the country. A 178% increase in values in Central Phoenix is proof of changing attitudes and desirability compared to the sprawl. An urban core in Tucson is non-existent.

Quote:
RE: Flights -

Yes, London is in Europe, but you'd have a VERY hard time trying to get a non-stop flight this holiday season with British Airways workers on strike (UPDATE: the Strike was called off 4 hours ago - nice life for all of those who went through the process of rebooking for later dates). Lufthansa HAS had plans to restart it's flights for a few years now, but we're still waiting. I'm a little more pessimistic to think that all of a sudden Phoenix is going to get a direct flight to China just because of Chinese investment in solar energy here (I'm still waiting on that direct flight to Dubai)...Tucson and Albuquerque are not hubs for any airlines, so it doesn't make economic sense for them to have direct inter-continental flights. It's hard enough for Tucson to get direct flights because of the pricing differences between taking a flight out of TIA, and it's close proximity to Sky Harbor (that's not Tucson's fault).
And this has what to do with long term service? Nothing...Dubai is in a huge collapse itself; don't think Emirate Airlines will be seeking new flight routes soon. The rest of your statement is a paraphrase of what I wrote. No need for Tucson/Albuquerque to have intercontinental flights.

Quote:
I don't need to be told about Phoenix, I know enough about it (clearly more than some). There will come a time when people will tire of Phoenix and move, just like those who tired of LA and moved (no offense to LA which I love), and Tucson (and ABQ) will have their day in the sun. I'm not saying Tucson and Albuquerque are perfect, but fortunately for our cities, we've watched Phoenix grow, and we have learned not to make the same mistakes Phoenix made when it's growth exploded.
There is no redeemable urbanity in Tucson or Albuquerque. How many people live in downtown Tucson/Albuquerque; I'd wager NONE. They haven't learned anything that Phoenix has done for downtown revitalization. One just needs to come to Phoenix to see that it is the premiere regional city and will surpass other western cities soon (as it should).

Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-17-2009 at 03:37 PM..
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
159 posts, read 447,672 times
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My top five would be:

1.Albuquerque- Lived here most of my life and love the food, culture,scenery and much more.

2. Tucson- Many of the same reasons i love ABQ. I find both of these cities very underrated.

3. Santa Fe-Really historical place with a lot to do for a city its size.

4. El Paso- Even more underrated than ABQ and Tucson. Safe city with a vibrant culture.

5. Las Cruces- No one really knows about it, but it's a nice, smaller city. Plus, I love the Organ Mountains.


Overall, the Southwest is a really underrated region and has a lot of things going for it.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
5,648 posts, read 7,451,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcorrales80 View Post
And now you are fired, LOL! First off, the universities, nightclubs, restaurants, neighborhoods, and shops do not leave with the sporting event crowds. I now know you must be from Tucson. Actually, some of the largest nightspots in the region are in downtown Phoenix, including the largest gay club, Amsterdam, the largest upscale Latino club Sky Lounge and Bar Smith, and the largest artist colony in the region, Roosevelt Row which includes another nightlife scene and is home to First Fridays. Scottsdale is a drive OR one can take the bus or trolley to downtown Scottsdale form Tempe after the light rail; again something a Valley resident would know and not something an out-of-towner would know off hand; it is ok, now you know. And Central Ave is where those large gay clubs, cafés, and museums are in downtown, not to mention the main line of the light rail corridor, LOL! Wow, Tucson isn't that far, is it???



The "modern street car Tucson is building?" What, will it take you 2 miles back and forth? You do realize the initial light rail line connects three city centers and will be expanded to four by 2015. By 2020 it will out-pace other systems and Tucson's little street car doesn't measure up by any standards. Again, one reason why it is silly to compare Phoenix, to other Southwest "cities." The Phoenix light rail line is also the most successful and heavily used initial line in the U.S...41,077 average daily riders for the month of October...The November numbers are much higher and will be "revealed" at the light rail one year celebration. Expect a big number again; compare that to Seattle's initial light rail line and they averaged 16,100 weekday riders...That is lower then Sunday/Holiday riders in Phoenix despite Seattle having a presumably more densely popluated urban and light rail corridor.

.

True, but not in foreclosure like you tried to play. Also, 44 Monroe like the condo tower seeking foreclosure will restructure to become high end rentals and lofts because those rates in downtown are low; testament to a growing market of new residents and those not looking to buy yet but to live.



And? No one denied that, but how soon we forget other recessions in Phoenix like the 80's real 178% increase in values in Central Phoenix is proof of changing attitudes and desirability compared to the sprawl. An urban core in Tucson is non-existent.



And this has what to do with long term service? Nothing...Dubai is in a huge collapse itself; don't think Emirate Airlines will be seeking new flight routes soon. The rest of your statement is a paraphrase of what I wrote. No need for Tucson/Albuquerque to have intercontinental flights.



There is no redeemable urbanity in Tucson or Albuquerque. How many people live in downtown Tucson/Albuquerque; I'd wager NONE. They haven't learned anything that Phoenix has done for downtown revitalization. One just needs to come to Phoenix to see that it is the premiere regional city and will surpass other western cities soon (as it should).

Listen...I've been going out to clubs in the Phoenix metro since '92. I am not someone who just moved here. I am well aware of the gay bar on Central in actual downtown (Amsterdam/Club Miami)...I used to frequent Crowbar all the time when it was a couple of doors down, and that's been gone for years. I was at the grand opening for Amsterdam. I think there are perhaps more people from Tucson who are aware of the nightlife in downtown PHX than vice versa. That doesn't mean Tucson doesn't have nightlife downtown. Quite the contrary. Between Congress St - 4th Avenue - University (all well within walking distance) there is MORE nightlife in downtown Tucson than downtown PHX, and some nice quality places as well.

I am also well-aware of the fledgling light-rail system Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa has. It has been a success. Again, Tucson is much smaller and is starting with an initial modern streetcar line that can also be expanded, just like the Metro light rail. There are other cities larger than Tucson (Jacksonville comes to mind) that doesn't even have that.

44 Monroe sat downtown empty for quite awhile. I really do hope that more people decide to make downtown PHX home rather than just ASU students. Having said that, to make a statement that downtown Tucson has no residents is absolutely absurd. In addition, Tucson did not tear down most of its historical buildings like Phoenix did. If you look at downtown PHX, there are many open spaces (i.e. parking lots). I do have to say that I like the lighting on the crown of the new Cityscape building though.

The great thing about Tucson is that it still has an older stock of buildings that is ripe for redevelopment, and some are already being redeveloped. Have you actually been to downtown Tucson in awhile? Phoenix is the premiere regional city because it has the largest population and therefore, offers more as it should. I think Tucson and ABQ will choose to do things their way rather than the PHX way. Besides, when has Phoenix EVER wanted Tucson to grow into something that would take away from PHX? NEVER. Phoenix has been a very selfish, greedy, pretentious city for a very long time, so when I hear negative statements about Tucson, I usually associate them with people who are just uninformed, apathetic, or hate Tucson because ASU and UA are rivals.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:38 PM
 
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1. Santa Fe
2. Las Cruces
3. Albuquerque

Only driven through Tucson so I can't comment, but it seems nice. Not a thing I like about Phoenix.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiam View Post
Listen...I've been going out to clubs in the Phoenix metro since '92. I am not someone who just moved here. I am well aware of the gay bar on Central in actual downtown (Amsterdam/Club Miami)...I used to frequent Crowbar all the time when it was a couple of doors down, and that's been gone for years. I was at the grand opening for Amsterdam. I think there are perhaps more people from Tucson who are aware of the nightlife in downtown PHX than vice versa. That doesn't mean Tucson doesn't have nightlife downtown. Quite the contrary. Between Congress St - 4th Avenue - University (all well within walking distance) there is MORE nightlife in downtown Tucson than downtown PHX, and some nice quality places as well.
Right, the ONE gay club on Central. Let's forget about Kobalt or the others and Maui, or Pandemonium, or Sanctum, or well you get the picture. You probably googled some clubs and listed the oldest; Amsterdam. I remember Crowbar from way back when (2004?) as it is now Club Downtown and another in between CLUB DWNT and Miami is Palazzo. What you seem to keep jumping back and forth from is saying there is nothing but First Friday and pro sports downtown; an obvious error. You forget the artist scene and Latino/urban/upscale scene that are right next to each other and in different neighborhoods and locations downtown. Obviously you are very unfamiliar with Phoenix. And no, there is not more night life in downtown Tucson than Phoenix, that is an obvious over statement and completely ludicrous; almost comical.

Quote:
I am also well-aware of the fledgling light-rail system Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa has. It has been a success. Again, Tucson is much smaller and is starting with an initial modern streetcar line that can also be expanded, just like the Metro light rail. There are other cities larger than Tucson (Jacksonville comes to mind) that doesn't even have that.
Right and you are trying to compare Tucson with Phoenix, or claim a MUCH smaller urban core (Tucson) and overall metro area has more to offer, more culture, more walkability, or more nightlife than a city that trumps other southwest cities by many times. One suburban spot, Scottsdale, has been called the South Beach of the desert by the New York Times and L.A. Times, and the scenes are only growing in each urban core. Nothing little Tucson can compete with in the four nightlife hot-spots of the Valley; Tempe, Glendale, Scottsdale, and Central Phoenix.

Quote:
44 Monroe sat downtown empty for quite awhile. I really do hope that more people decide to make downtown PHX home rather than just ASU students. Having said that, to make a statement that downtown Tucson has no residents is absolutely absurd. In addition, Tucson did not tear down most of its historical buildings like Phoenix did. If you look at downtown PHX, there are many open spaces (i.e. parking lots). I do have to say that I like the lighting on the crown of the new Cityscape building though.
It never sat empty, at opening a "handful" of people moved into the 164 units in the 34 floor building. About a meager 24, LOL! Horrible...about 90 have been sold, but not occupied as of now and they hope to turn the additional units, with cooperation of owners of empty units into rentals. The lighted crown is on the new One Central Park East Tower and the crown of the CityScape tower hasn't been installed yet, just a small corner; get it right, LOL! Just kidding...Actually, in downtown Phoenix there are now limited parking lots, unlike Tucson where the main feature are four high-rises and HUGE lots that can be seen from skyline photos next to tacky colored ugly low rise buildings.

There are some small historic structures in downtown Tucson, but a few (Luhrs Tower, Central Building, and Security Building) of Phoenix' historic high-rises and mid-rises encompass more square footage than all of the historic buildings in downtown Tucson. There is a very small residential base in downtown Tucson; less than 1,000 people. 0.80 square miles in downtown Phoenix has over 14,000 people; not including the CBD, midtown, and uptown including the historic neighborhoods on either side of Central Ave to the North Central neighborhood.

Quote:
The great thing about Tucson is that it still has an older stock of buildings that is ripe for redevelopment, and some are already being redeveloped. Have you actually been to downtown Tucson in awhile? Phoenix is the premiere regional city because it has the largest population and therefore, offers more as it should. I think Tucson and ABQ will choose to do things their way rather than the PHX way. Besides, when has Phoenix EVER wanted Tucson to grow into something that would take away from PHX? NEVER. Phoenix has been a very selfish, greedy, pretentious city for a very long time, so when I hear negative statements about Tucson, I usually associate them with people who are just uninformed, apathetic, or hate Tucson because ASU and UA are rivals.
Same here in Phoenix; there are actually 4 large buildings that are or soon will be undergoing redevelopment. Others in downtown Phoenix have been fully restored or are already done or ongoing; The San Carlos Hotel, Westward Ho, Historic Federal Building, Circles Building, The Downtown Phoenix Public Market, Monroe School, Phoenix Union and on and on...too many to list and remember. I don't hate Tucson at all I just think that reality about each city should be incorporated into the conversation. To say that the other SW cities can compete with Phoenix is absurd; to say that cultural amenities are found more in other SW cities is even more absurd.

Tucson is what it is; a smaller city that Phoenix was in the 60's and 70's. Will it develop differently? Slightly, but I already see it emulating Phoenix. One thing both cities have done well compared to other metros, is to restrict unbridled freeway construction and growth. If you look at the few freeways in metro Phoenix serving a 4.3 million population, and compare it to Minneapolis, Denver, Houston, etc you will notice much more subdued construction of endless freeway; testament to Phoenix' relatively small urban footprint compared to other new, sprawling metros. Despite that, traffic on freeways remains manageable and transit use exploding. Phoenix is the fifth largest city and 12th largest metro area but has the 15th worst traffic in the nation...

Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-17-2009 at 06:53 PM..
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