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Old 12-18-2009, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 8,869,223 times
Reputation: 901

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Slightly newer picture, Roosevelt Square in downtown Phoenix:



Downtown Phoenix' Civic Space Park and the very weird flying sculpture by Janet Echelmann; "Her Secret is Patience." It is supposed to be a cactus blossom or "towering thunderhead during a monsoon storm." It is odd either way, controversial, but that is what makes it art:




At night from the Tapatio Cliffs:

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Old 12-18-2009, 01:41 AM
 
857 posts, read 1,413,951 times
Reputation: 186
Default SW Cities

I've visited all of them, and prefer Colorado, California, and the West Coast. Reason: If you are a Liberal, Libertarian, or non-conformist, the Conservative, HOA-ruled southwest is not for you.

The idea of Master-Planned Yuppie and/or Retirement-folk occupied Urban Villages within Phoenix, Scottsdale, Mesa, Albuquerque (that is, the Westside and NE Heights; Los Ranchos/North Valley/Nob Hill are nice), Las Vegas (NV), Henderson, (NV), Oro Valley (AZ), Palm Springs, and Flagstaff -- each with 150' wide streets + HOA's + gravelscaping does not appeal to me aesthetically or on a practical level (i.e. for working on cars). (Not to mention the silly music in the parking lot at the Superwallmarts in Happy Valley, AZ; Oro Valley, AZ; and probably elsewhere.)

Phoenix urban planners face a huge problem, because families and retired folk spend time in their master planned urban villages, never going into so-called "downtown Phoenix" or "downtown Scottsdale." The history of Phoenix and bordering cities has been on annexation and decentralization, spreading out over the valley.

Las Vegas and Henderson, kind of the same thing, because there really isn't a downtown Las Vegas - it's just The Strip and the governmental buildings. If Phoenix can significantly revitalize its downtown, it will bring new business and young urban professionals to the region. Likewise with Vegas, Palm Springs, Flagstaff, and Albuquerque.

Now, of course, Santa Fe (NM) and various other lesser known traditional smaller towns w/ Hispanic influences (i.e. Cave Creek / Carefree, AZ; Placitas, NM; Sedona, AZ; Los Ranchos de Albuquerque, NM) are all much "softer" in terms of architecture (i.e. fewer right angles, more foliage, more natural beauty vs. gravelscaping - all very nice).

Last edited by CCCVDUR; 12-18-2009 at 01:55 AM..
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
17,409 posts, read 21,254,176 times
Reputation: 24241
One of the overlooked features of Tucson is it's proximity to Nogales, a short 60-mile bus or car drive away. It would be one of the main reasons to pick Tucson over Phoenix. And, IMO, the Gay bars in either Tijuana or Nogales can't hold a candle to the bars north of the border for excitement.

That's great news that there'll be more international flights out of Phoenix, for those who get so stone-bored with that city, they can now get as far away from that city as they would like. Non-stoppers to my favorite areas of the world, South and Central America, would even be more perfect.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 8,869,223 times
Reputation: 901
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCVDUR View Post
I've visited all of them, and prefer Colorado, California, and the West Coast. Reason: If you are a Liberal, Libertarian, or non-conformist, the Conservative, HOA-ruled southwest is not for you.

The idea of Master-Planned Yuppie and/or Retirement-folk occupied Urban Villages within Phoenix, Scottsdale, Mesa, Albuquerque (that is, the Westside and NE Heights; Los Ranchos/North Valley/Nob Hill are nice), Las Vegas (NV), Henderson, (NV), Oro Valley (AZ), Palm Springs, and Flagstaff -- each with 150' wide streets + HOA's + gravelscaping does not appeal to me aesthetically or on a practical level (i.e. for working on cars). (Not to mention the silly music in the parking lot at the Superwallmarts in Happy Valley, AZ; Oro Valley, AZ; and probably elsewhere.)

Phoenix urban planners face a huge problem, because families and retired folk spend time in their master planned urban villages, never going into so-called "downtown Phoenix" or "downtown Scottsdale." The history of Phoenix and bordering cities has been on annexation and decentralization, spreading out over the valley.

Las Vegas and Henderson, kind of the same thing, because there really isn't a downtown Las Vegas - it's just The Strip and the governmental buildings. If Phoenix can significantly revitalize its downtown, it will bring new business and young urban professionals to the region. Likewise with Vegas, Palm Springs, Flagstaff, and Albuquerque.

Now, of course, Santa Fe (NM) and various other lesser known traditional smaller towns w/ Hispanic influences (i.e. Cave Creek / Carefree, AZ; Placitas, NM; Sedona, AZ; Los Ranchos de Albuquerque, NM) are all much "softer" in terms of architecture (i.e. fewer right angles, more foliage, more natural beauty vs. gravelscaping - all very nice).
LOL, I stopped reading when I came across this assertion: "never going into so-called "downtown Phoenix" or "downtown Scottsdale." The history of Phoenix and bordering cities has been on annexation and decentralization, spreading out over the valley." LMAO! Yeah, this poster knows what he/she is talking about! Especially if the poster knew that Phoenix was almost half (250 sq miles) preserve land, park land, and public trust land; meaning not developed and not for development in the future. The urban footprint of Phoenix is small and dense. Who cares if retired folk travel into the core from Sun City? Not many, but the belief that families and retire people do not is also extremely false.

Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-18-2009 at 02:26 AM..
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
17,409 posts, read 21,254,176 times
Reputation: 24241
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcorrales80 View Post

I've had the unfortunate luck of being stationed in New Mexico and Albuquerque/Las Cruces...the "Land of Entrapment"
I left the "Land of Entrapment" (Phoenix) back in 1996. Widespread photo radar, over-vigilant patrol officers, good enough reasons to leave that entrapping city.

Still awaiting my first speeding ticket in Las Vegas in 13 years, and I've long-deserved it. Thank God this city isn't over-reliant on moving violations like Phoenix.

When they say: vacation in Arizona, leave on probation, I feel that speaks more of Phoenix.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 8,869,223 times
Reputation: 901
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
I left the "Land of Entrapment" (Phoenix) back in 1996. Widespread photo radar, over-vigilant patrol officers, good enough reasons to leave that entrapping city.
You do know NM, CA, WA, and CO are all implementing photo radar based on the Phoenix and Arizona model? Also the "Land of Entrapment" is a military parody of "The Land Of Enchantment" state motto of New Mexico; once stationed there, you can never escape! Over-vigilant patrol officers? LOL Sounds like someone got caught drinking and driving...since Phoenix didn't have photo radar back in 1996.

Quote:
Still awaiting my first speeding ticket in Las Vegas in 13 years, and I've long-deserved it. Thank God this city isn't over-reliant on moving violations like Phoenix.
No, it is over-reliant on one other industry; casinos. There is no other industry in that dead-end career oriented city. Got your show-girl costume, you'll need it unless you have your concierge coat on...

Quote:
When they say: vacation in Arizona, leave on probation, I feel that speaks more of Phoenix.
To me, it speaks of idiots who would have gotten caught back at home sooner or later, but decided to drink and drive in Arizona or Phoenix; no pity from me...it is call the light rail, cab, party bus, trolley, hotel room...
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
17,409 posts, read 21,254,176 times
Reputation: 24241
[quote=fcorrales80;12077256]
Quote:


Over-vigilant patrol officers? LOL Sounds like someone got caught drinking and driving...since Phoenix didn't have photo radar back in 1996.

To me, it speaks of idiots who would have gotten caught back at home sooner or later, but decided to drink and drive in Arizona or Phoenix
No photo radar in 1996? Before I left town there was a lawyer contesting a speeding ticket he had received via photo radar along Lincoln Drive which I read in the newspaper.

Sounds like a drinking and driving case? At the time, I was new to the city and I rec'd a ticket making a left turn on one of those streets which posts no left turns at certain hours of the day. The other one was for going 7 miles over the limit.

Back in Minneapolis I had never rec'd a moving violation in all the years I drove there. Here, in Las Vegas, hasn't happend yet. Twice, in Phoenix, in a relatively short period of time? Time to move on?

You're assuming all the violations involve drinking and driving for everybody getting tickets there.

I have read any number of your forum threads on moving violations down there. Land of entrapment, indeed, a great source of continual revenue for the city of Phoenix.
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
3,995 posts, read 8,869,223 times
Reputation: 901
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover;12077287[/quote
No photo radar in 1996? Before I left town there was a lawyer contesting a speeding ticket he had received via photo radar along Lincoln Drive which I read in the newspaper.
That was a red light camera; photo radar was installed on valley freeways beginning October 2009; those red light and intersection cameras aren't new to the U.S. and actually started in other cities.

Quote:
Sounds like a drinking and driving case? At the time, I was new to the city and I rec'd a ticket making a left turn on one of those streets which posts no left turns at certain hours of the day. The other one was for going 7 miles over the limit.
Hmmm, I can see the red light ticket, but speeding photo radar cameras are set to go off 10 mph in cities and 11 mph on the freeways. You can look that up by just googling photo radar limits in AZ.

Quote:
Back in Minneapolis I had never rec'd a moving violation in all the years I drove there. Here, in Las Vegas, hasn't happend yet. Twice, in Phoenix, in a relatively short period of time? Time to move on?
Or time to slow down; I've received warning or tickets in NM, Los Angeles (ticket), San Diego (warning), Seattle (warning), and Vegas (ticket) but never in Phoenix or Arizona...but two people's experiences probably mean little.

Quote:
You're assuming all the violations involve drinking and driving for everybody getting tickets there.
Being an Arizona and Phoenix resident, I am aware of the fact that the most common crime and cases through Maricopa County Courts (includes city of Phoenix and highway patrol citations) involving vehicles are for speed and a good percentage of those are for people who are drunk or impaired. Luckily, those numbers have declined dramatically; below Vegas levels (but then crime in Vegas makes Phoenix look like Mayberry). Fatal accidents, incidents of speed violations, and fender benders has dropped steadily in metro Phoenix. Phoenix was recently ranked the safest big city to drive in.

Quote:
I have read any number of your forum threads on moving violations down there. Land of entrapment, indeed, a great source of continual revenue for the city of Phoenix.
You do know it is a State of Arizona (DPS) program, NOT the City of Phoenix save the few intersection and red light cameras the city of Phoenix operates. It is not a great source of continual revenue; it is actually just enough to sustain operations, LOL! You'd think they would be raking in the dough, but they often don't break even. The argument is that they have helped to reduce fatal accidents and accidents in general...I think they cost us money actually especially because only 24% of those that receive the tickets, pay them because they refute the constitutionality of the tickets (an issue the state and courts are dealing with):
Quote:
When the system was just getting set up in October, 34 percent of drivers paid their tickets. By June, that statistic had dropped to 24 percent.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...onkey0908.html

Last edited by fcorrales80; 12-18-2009 at 03:24 AM..
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Phoenix Arizona
2,032 posts, read 4,037,633 times
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What are the limits of the Southwest? I would argue southern Colorado and southern Utah could be called SW, but Las Vegas? Not so sure.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:10 AM
 
Location: 602/520
2,441 posts, read 6,124,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcorrales80 View Post
Lacking urban cores, large museums, large theaters, an International Airport where one could take a non-stop flight to Europe, Asia, or Latin American, international business (what I do in Phoenix), the nation's largest Art Walk (Phoenix First Friday), one of the nation's largest Hispanic/Chicano/Latino art and cultural centers, the world's most renowned Native American art collections and cultural assets including ancient ruins of one of the most advance Native civilizations in the Americas, incredible nightlife, all professional sports, and on and on. I could write a book.
This delusional Phoenix superiority has got to stop. I live in and love the Phoenix area, but I have to call BS.

Since when does Phoenix have a large urban core? Every other post on the Phoenix forum is a poster bemoaning the fact that Phoenix's skyline is so small, there is little activity after the end of the workday, and new residents AND businesses are drawn to outlying areas in far greater numbers than the central city. It seems that Phoenix gets light rail and all the sudden its downtown is a large urban core.

For its size, Phoenix very mediocre museums that are very small. Both Albuquerque and Tucson has very impressive art museums for being medium-sized cities. Also, I don't know what "large theaters" you're referring to. Tucson has the Rialto and Fox theaters. I am sure that that Albuquerque has a fair amount of theater space, as well.

I would expect Phoenix to have international flights seeing as it's the 5th most populous city in the country. Comparing Albuquerque, Tucson, and El Paso to Phoenix is terms of flights is ridiculous, seeing as all three cities have less than half the population of Phoenix. While we're on the subject of transportation, there is one thing that Albuquerque, Tucson, AND El Paso have that Phoenix doesn't -- Amtrak service. You would think that a city that is as multi-faceted as you claim Phoenix is would at least have basic Amtrak service. Nope.

What kind of international business does Phoenix have? You make Phoenix sound like it's the comparable to the likes of Dubai, Miami, LA, New York, and London. Not really. Phoenix's economy is very heavily reliant on local residential construction.

Woo, Phoenix has the nation's largest First Friday event. That's really no bragging point. It's a bunch of people walking around and drinking.

Comparing Hispanic and Native American art in Phoenix to that in Tucson and Albuquerque is foolish. Phoenix has done everything in its power to become an "Anglicized." Tucson and Albuquerque has a lot of authentic art that is not guarded in pretentious galleries. Nevermind that Tucson has been home to a continuous Native American population for 4,000 years and has had an nomadic population for the past 12,000 years. I guess irrigation channels that the Hohokam dug hundreds of years ago negate those facts.

I wouldn't call Phoenix's nightlife "incredible." First of all, pretty much all of the nightlife is in Scottsdale or Tempe, not Phoenix. Secondly, these nightlife spots are usually overrun by ASU students and 30K dollar millionaires. Far from incredible.

Professional sports. Yes. Phoenix does have THAT edge over all other cities in the Southwest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcorrales80 View Post
I've had the unfortunate luck of being stationed in New Mexico and Albuquerque/Las Cruces...the "Land of Entrapment" and there is plenty of cookie cutter ticky tacky all over the U.S. including Las Cruces, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe (a Sedona, Jerome and Tucson copycat BTW)...
While all cities in the Southwest have severe sprawl, none are REMOTELY comparable to the behemoth that is the Valley. A sea of tile roof homes that stretch 40 miles from Central Phoenix is suburbanism in Phoenix. Albuquerque, Tucson, and El Paso all have much smaller metropolitan areas, fewer pollution problems, are generally safer, are much more scenic with taller mountains and more natural surroundings, and are much more culturally authentic in regards to their rich histories.

For you to say that Santa Fe is a copy of Sedona, Jerome, and Tucson shows that you know next to nothing about Southwestern culture. All of those cities have rich histories.

With all that said, Phoenix ranks near the bottom in terms of "best city in the Southwest." You can post as many photos from as many angles as you want to of Central Phoenix, but that does not negate the fact that it is sorely lacking for a city of 1.6 million people. Look at Philadelphia's skyline and look at Phoenix's. The fact that you are comparing the skyline of Phoenix to that of Tucson and Albuquerque speaks volumes. Lastly, you make the comment about Tucson and Albuquerque being "dusty." Uhh, both cities are in deserts, they get dust every now and then. That also speaks toward Phoenix's "Southwesterness." I know we forget from time to time, but Phoenix IS in a desert.
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