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Old 06-12-2007, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Greater Houston
3,030 posts, read 5,631,093 times
Reputation: 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
Honestly, what does it matter that it expands into the suburbs. This is the one mistake and the only mistake I think Dallas made with it's light rail. Get all the lines you can in the city of Houston. Worry about the suburbs later. But Houston has a strong car culture. Just like LA which is also hassled for it's lack of rail transportation. No matter if you want to give it up a little, people from older more urban cities would live to give up their car period. You just cannot do tha in Houston. At least not yet. I would love to see it though.
Why would anyone use light rail to the suburbs? Its too slow compared to commuter rail. Dallas' mistake is using the wrong mode of transport.
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Old 06-12-2007, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
13,388 posts, read 14,447,772 times
Reputation: 4996
Fair enough Guerilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
Why would anyone use light rail to the suburbs? Its too slow compared to commuter rail. Dallas' mistake is using the wrong mode of transport.
What's the correct mode of transport? And your first part basically answers or is an extension of my post. Build as much rail in the city limits as possible. Worry about the burbs later.

Quote:
In these days, I just don't see it this way. You would have to take a poll of an entire city to know exactly who-wants-what. How do you know that more than half of the city is only driving because they have no choice?
Well in these days, sadly to tell you, urban enthusiats would like to use their car as little as possible if at all. People that live w/o cars at all love that they don't have to pay insurance, gas, money to repair, registration, etc. etc. that comes with the car. I don't need to take a poll. You can basically go to an urban and dense city and see that people like to live w/o a car and enjoy it very much. As far as Houston. I don't need to know half of the city. Look at it's built environment. It's just like the rest of the sunbelt cities. It's built around the car. You need a car to do just about everything in sunbelt cities. And the majority of Houston, especially outside the loop, is not built for pedestrians.
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Old 06-12-2007, 08:27 PM
 
609 posts, read 2,087,774 times
Reputation: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
MSAs are also boundaries. Does anybody in Chicagoland think that Kenosha is part of Chicagoland? Some people define Chicagoland as Chicago and its ILLINOIS suburbs. Some add NW Indiana to that. Very few would add WI.

In the Census 20 years from now, they might add Rockford and Milwaukee metros to Chicagoland. You see its also boundaries. Everything is just boundaries. Sometimes it is not accurate. In reality, DFW would rank as the 6th largest MSA. Baltimore-Washington and SF-San Josť would rank larger if the MSA's were accurate.

Houston is going to overtake DFW for sure--it is only a matter of time. It is in Houston's best interest not to overtake Chicagoland. We'll treat you and the rest of Texas the way Chicagolanders treat downstaters.
Actually this is CSA is a statistic used also.
But CSA's tend to reach too far. MSA's tend for the most part to be better reflection of a region. Urbanized areas are also in use also, and focus even more closer to the principle city. Using all 3 stats, CSA, MSA, or UA, DFW is larger than Houston. As for Baltimore/Washington, I do acknowledge there maybe some flaw in the MSA system, but it works relatively well compared to the much larger CSA system. I think couting places like Pella, IA in the DEs Moines CSA is a bit ridiculous if you look at the maps.
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Old 06-12-2007, 08:32 PM
 
609 posts, read 2,087,774 times
Reputation: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
Why would anyone use light rail to the suburbs? Its too slow compared to commuter rail. Dallas' mistake is using the wrong mode of transport.
ACtually several people use the DART in the suburbs, just not what would be comparable to Northern cities. The numbers are rising every year. This is why they are working on a line through Las Colinas and into DFW airport and also into Carrolton. DART would not be expanding if it werent economically feasible. Just like Chicago wouldnt have expanded into its western burbs if it was not financially justified.

Dallas is doing the right thing...created mass transit rail to accomodate the 3.5 million people it's expected to gain over the next decade.

And like Houston, Dallas also has a strong car culture...they're adapting to Houston's and LA's HOV lane system. 75 will be virtually HOV'd by the end of the year. LBJ already has HOV lanes. 35 for some stretch also.

The freeway planning in both Houston and Dallas is right on.

Both are well planned cities with great foresight for the future even though it appears their rails are behind that of Chicago, etc.
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Texas
2,703 posts, read 247,155 times
Reputation: 206
Houston has 40,000 ridership with just one line. Dallas (and vicinity) as 64,000. Once Houston gets more rail, the ridership numbers will easily surpass Dallas (and vicinity).
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Greater Houston
3,030 posts, read 5,631,093 times
Reputation: 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
Build as much rail in the city limits as possible. Worry about the burbs later.
No one will ride the rail in the city without being able to get there from their car. I can't use the light rail system without parking my car and it is hard to find a lot that doesn't charge or one that won't tow your car away. Most of the city was built as subdivided burbs (e.g. Sharpstown).

Hopefully your kind of inner loop snobbery affect the rest of Houston. Both have to be built at the same time. The commuter system gets me into the city so I can take the light rail and buses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metroplex2003 View Post
As for Baltimore/Washington, I do acknowledge there maybe some flaw in the MSA system, but it works relatively well compared to the much larger CSA system.
Apparently the DC/Baltimore MSA's extend into Frederick, MD, Hagerstown, MD, and Fredericksburg, VA. The CSA includes Richmond, VA and Norfolk/Newport News, VA.

How about SF-San Josť? Two errors are too many. Many tech workers live in SF and take BART to San Josť, so why are they separated? An appropriate CSA would be SF-Sacramento, though it may turn into a MSA in the future because of the high housing prices in SF. Some people actually make that commute now but in the future there might be a critical mass that does it.

Last edited by KerrTown; 06-13-2007 at 09:20 AM.. Reason: CSA's
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Texas
2,703 posts, read 247,155 times
Reputation: 206
Isn't Stockton included in SF's CSA? They have many commuters between the two metros.
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Old 06-13-2007, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
13,388 posts, read 14,447,772 times
Reputation: 4996
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
No one will ride the rail in the city without being able to get there from their car. I can't use the light rail system without parking my car and it is hard to find a lot that doesn't charge or one that won't tow your car away. Most of the city was built as subdivided burbs (e.g. Sharpstown).

Hopefully your kind of inner loop snobbery affect the rest of Houston. Both have to be built at the same time. The commuter system gets me into the city so I can take the light rail and buses.
What are you talking about. And how in the hell am I being a snob? Because I believe that the city should take care of the city first? Well if that's true, than so be it.I'm sorry I like my cities urban, dense, and vibrant. Where you don't have to use your car for every little thing. The suburbs would have to wait until the city can sustain itself as far as mass transportation. I said nothing about commuter rail. I know what they do. I'm talking about light or heavy rail. DC took care of the city first, than went into the suburbs.

Quote:
Apparently the DC/Baltimore MSA's extend into Frederick, MD, Hagerstown, MD, and Fredericksburg, VA. The CSA includes Richmond, VA and Norfolk/Newport News, VA.
The CSA does NOT including Richmond and Norfolk/Newport News, VA. the CSA only includes Loudon county and a couple counties in WV. But the CSA does not reach south of Woodbridge. And Woodbrige is 80 miles north of Richmond and 150 miles north of the Hampton Roads.
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Old 06-13-2007, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Texas
2,703 posts, read 247,155 times
Reputation: 206
The only suburb I think Houston should cater to is Galveston (if you could even call it a suburb). I would love a commuter rail line linking the two. The great thing is, it is happening.
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Old 06-13-2007, 01:02 PM
 
609 posts, read 2,087,774 times
Reputation: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerilla View Post
Houston has 40,000 ridership with just one line. Dallas (and vicinity) as 64,000. Once Houston gets more rail, the ridership numbers will easily surpass Dallas (and vicinity).
Not so sure a/b that. You forget that Dallas is doubling the size of its light rails and adding lines 3 and 4 right now. Also not included are the TRE numbers, which meets up with the light rail at the central station in downtown. Also line 5, which will run the northern suburbs will make it possible to hit the tollway district and telecom cooridor without having to connect in downtown making it even more convenient for riders...it's being decided b/t heavy vs. light rail. Finally, the Ft. Worth side is getting in on the light rail action, and will have their lines up with possible connections onto the DFW side in the next 5 years as well. OVerall, absolute numbers , DFW should maintain the lead. Now relative numbers maybe different, but DFW is expected to grow at or slightly more than the Houston MSA. We shall see...but I dont think that you can predict which MSA will have more ridership numbers based on current trends...I can easily say DFW will maintain the lead given its expansion plans. If DFW didnt expand its rails, and Houston just expanded theirs, then yes, I can agree with you...but it's way too hard to predict at this point.
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